debka_notion | Another Gender Thing, Or What the Heck Is Male Bonding Anyways

During learning tonight, Steve,

wotyfree and I had a discussion about how we speak about the opposite sex. The starting point was the combination of looking at the curses to Eve in Genesis 3:16 and comparing with Genesis 4:7 (might be verse 6- it's the warning G-d gives to Cain), and thinking about gender, sexuality and sin. From there, things came around to my mention of being at Steve's for shabbos dinner a few weeks ago and his roommates making some comments in front of me that were quite objectifying to women, without thinking about it at all. After some discussion, he insisted that making objectifying comments about women, particularly sexual comments relating to their appearance, was a frequent and necessary piece of male bonding. I objected- there must be some way for men to bond without being derogatory to women, right?

But it has set me to thinking about how I speak about men (I'm generally pretty uncomfortable discussing men's appearance in general, although I will mention that someone is attractive, if it's relevant- I find the notion of saying more than that very uncomfortable in the vast majority of situations. I wonder if that's just me.), and how one can discuss appearance without objectifying the person about whom one is speaking.

Even more so, it is pushing me to consider how men are and are not reached by feminism, and how I'm supposed to react to that. It is becoming more and more clear that the way that feminism reaches women is different from the way that it reaches men, and how complex that relationship can be. It troubles me, but I feel clueless about how to treat the issue.

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...I think he actually had a fairly good point that we don't have the social experience of being men and that I shouldn't trivialize it based on what I imagine without actually listening to men.

I'm not sure what to make of that.

That is some of what I'm trying to get at, in terms of trying to understand the situation. But at the same time, I feel like there can also be different standards for what's acceptable between things that are a little less than PC, and things that really objectify someone else and make them uncomfortable. Expressing appreciation for appearance is one thing (even to the point of "Gee, he/she is really hot", not that I'd say that), while expressing it only in sexual terms (what was the expression he cited- "I'd hit that"?) sounds very different, to me.

Still, I very much sympathize with his need for explicitly male forms of male bonding and male space. I recognize the importance of that. However, I still want to believe that men can find truly male space and expression without being derogatory towards women. But they have to want to, and how they find that they should want to- that I don't know. I encounter the same problem with women in regards to men, occasionally, and that bothers me too- but then I can say something without being regarded as just being a silly woman, you know?

Another Gender Thing, Or What the Heck Is Male Bonding Anyways

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