Another Gender Thing, Or What the Heck Is Male Bonding Anyways

[debka_notion]

During learning tonight, Steve, wotyfree and I had a discussion about how we speak about the opposite sex. The starting point was the combination of looking at the curses to Eve in Genesis 3:16 and comparing with Genesis 4:7 (might be verse 6- it's the warning G-d gives to Cain), and thinking about gender, sexuality and sin. From there, things came around to my mention of being at Steve's for shabbos dinner a few weeks ago and his roommates making some comments in front of me that were quite objectifying to women, without thinking about it at all. After some discussion, he insisted that making objectifying comments about women, particularly sexual comments relating to their appearance, was a frequent and necessary piece of male bonding. I objected- there must be some way for men to bond without being derogatory to women, right?

But it has set me to thinking about how I speak about men (I'm generally pretty uncomfortable discussing men's appearance in general, although I will mention that someone is attractive, if it's relevant- I find the notion of saying more than that very uncomfortable in the vast majority of situations. I wonder if that's just me.), and how one can discuss appearance without objectifying the person about whom one is speaking.

Even more so, it is pushing me to consider how men are and are not reached by feminism, and how I'm supposed to react to that. It is becoming more and more clear that the way that feminism reaches women is different from the way that it reaches men, and how complex that relationship can be. It troubles me, but I feel clueless about how to treat the issue.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

long time lurker, first time commenter: It could also be that we are all post-feminists now. I grew up with the understanding that women could be equal in the work force, could make decisions about family structure, kids, roles to play, etc. I'm not a feminist. I'm an unreconstructed paleolithic male, who is totally comfortable with women in non-traditional roles (in the workplace and family space, that is, I'm also quite traditional in terms of religious roles).

So, male bonding may involve comments objectifying women (never wives or girlfriends, sisters are fair game). And why not? As long as I treat women as subjects (in the I/thou sense) in actual work/family/social interactions, why shouldn't I occasionally ogle a woman or discuss her charms with friends? Now, you may say that it's impossible to do both, but I'll disagree with that.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

Welcome, long time lurker (do I know you?). The thing is, to me at least, the whole post-feminist thing feels like a trap to keep me from noticing how many things are still majorly problematic- the wage gap is still substantial, men often have a hard time getting parental leave, studies have shown that in couples where both husband and wife work full time jobs, the wife still does the Vast majority of the housework, and men are culturally permitted to talk about women in ways that women are not permitted to talk about men.

Can you appreciate a woman's appearance, and even discuss it, and then interact with her without that influencing your behavior? I wouldn't doubt that you can, on occasion. But does your looking at women in that manner eventually affect the way you subconsciously view women in general? That's where I get worried. Also- seriously and thoughtfully try to reverse the situation. How would you feel if you were walking down the street, knowing that women you encounter were discussing having sex with you purely based on your appearance?