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An interesting thought that I was talking about over the holiday, rather than a listing of my emotive ups and downs of the last 3 days, when I slept and to whom I spoke, and how my prayer experience was: I've been doing enough of that lately, and it must be dull.
So, I was talking to Steve about minyan stuff, and a lot of it derived from the fact that she grew up in an orthodox setting, although her mother's family is conservative egal. So I was asking her if she accepted being counted for a minyan at egal, since we do make it a specific policy that if someone asks not to be counted for the minyan, we won't do so, since we want to be able to have non-egal visitors if they want to check it out/be there for some other reason. But she was talking about how she always viewed it as a passive sort of behavior: either they count you or not. After all, in an orthodox minyan, a man couldn't go to a minyan and ask not to be counted and have that request acted upon unless there was a halakhic reason not to count him (like say, he hadn't finished his conversion). I'm taking her word on that one- I've never seem a man make that request: I don't know why he'd have any reason to. ANyone who can think of counter examples to any of this or affirmations- please let me know. Therefore she said she wouldn't ask not to be counted for a minyan, regardless of whether or not she'd rather hold by only an unmixed (aka, only men) minyan or not- something on which I don't actually know her precise opinion.
It was just a curious thought, since I've heard more people object to not counting for a minyan than to separate seating/mechitzah (the curtain/barrier between men and women in Orthodox synagogues), at least among the more observant portion of the non-Orthodox Jewish community. And certainly it has felt a bit odd the couple of time when I've been with 9 men in an orthodox context: to my mind there's a minyan, to their minds there isn't, so I'm in the clear to say the prayers that require a minyan and they aren't until they find another man. But still- I accept the rules of conduct wherever I go, and that's part of the deal. So I guess this is only the reverse. But I know that most Orthodox women would be pretty unhappy with the concept, even the ones who would willingly be in a non-gender-segregated prayer situation. It's an interesting imbalance as far as what one is willing to participate in- it says something about how you feel about a situation that you're willing to go but not fully participate. It's like saying "I may be here, but I'm not involved", even if one is also praying. It's also interesting, because I don't know of any orthodox men who would ask not to be counted, even if they don't accept the minyan there and wouldn't respond/participate in things that require a minyan unless there was either/both a complete male minyan and/or a man leading the service (I've seen standards there vary significantly, from men who will participate as long as a man is leading to men who will do so regardless of who is leading as long as there's a male minyan present, to those who just say "ok I'm here, when in Rome do as the Romans", to those who won't go). So there they'd be a passive participant even when not an active participant.
I suppose that makes such women more behaviorally consistant than the men- that they're acting to make sure that their standards aren't violated for them. On the other hand, the men might be so used to being counted that it wouldn't even be a question, since if there was a male minyan they would accept it as valid, I'm presuming- at least they have as far as I've seen. Anyways, they could hardly say "only count me if there are 9 other men around", since most likely the minyan would be set, there are rarely only men at any egal service I've seen. But well, I'm also not sure how it all fits in with proper behavior as far as not embarassing people and not standing out in unpleasant ways goes. I don't know where one's personal halakhic comfort lets off and obeying the standards of the community begins.
It also seems to reflect the idea that whatever is stricter is inherently in a postion where asking for compromise is less acceptable. I can understand that- it's less problematic to ask people to be stricter on themselves than they would be than to ask them to say that something they don't think is acceptable is ok for whatever circumstance. Nevertheless, if they're making the choice to visit a context that compromises their standards, ought they not try to cooperate with teh standards of the community which they're visiting as much as possible? I mean, when I go to my parents' shul, I participate, regardless of whether or not they're a minyan, since they don't look for one, specifically (that said, there usually is one, even not counting folks with conversions that were probably halakhically sketchy if at all valid), and I try not to stand out too much, even though I do try to get in the bits that are particularly important that they skip, espcially if they're in the prayerbook. But well- politeness is pretty important, both in general and halakhically. ANd if one isn't willing to follow the rules of the community, why does one go?
That said, I never thought twice about people asking not to be counted: it's the way things are, and so I wouldn't count them, even if it made life difficult/frustrating. (I Would look at it as tasteless if they asked not to be counted in a situation where it's difficult for us to make a minyan though, like a weekday morning.) But well, the idea that it's passive just sort of struck me. This isn't the most cohesive writing- but well, maybe sometime soon I'll be able to structure a more logical and thought out set of comments.
So, I was talking to Steve about minyan stuff, and a lot of it derived from the fact that she grew up in an orthodox setting, although her mother's family is conservative egal. So I was asking her if she accepted being counted for a minyan at egal, since we do make it a specific policy that if someone asks not to be counted for the minyan, we won't do so, since we want to be able to have non-egal visitors if they want to check it out/be there for some other reason. But she was talking about how she always viewed it as a passive sort of behavior: either they count you or not. After all, in an orthodox minyan, a man couldn't go to a minyan and ask not to be counted and have that request acted upon unless there was a halakhic reason not to count him (like say, he hadn't finished his conversion). I'm taking her word on that one- I've never seem a man make that request: I don't know why he'd have any reason to. ANyone who can think of counter examples to any of this or affirmations- please let me know. Therefore she said she wouldn't ask not to be counted for a minyan, regardless of whether or not she'd rather hold by only an unmixed (aka, only men) minyan or not- something on which I don't actually know her precise opinion.
It was just a curious thought, since I've heard more people object to not counting for a minyan than to separate seating/mechitzah (the curtain/barrier between men and women in Orthodox synagogues), at least among the more observant portion of the non-Orthodox Jewish community. And certainly it has felt a bit odd the couple of time when I've been with 9 men in an orthodox context: to my mind there's a minyan, to their minds there isn't, so I'm in the clear to say the prayers that require a minyan and they aren't until they find another man. But still- I accept the rules of conduct wherever I go, and that's part of the deal. So I guess this is only the reverse. But I know that most Orthodox women would be pretty unhappy with the concept, even the ones who would willingly be in a non-gender-segregated prayer situation. It's an interesting imbalance as far as what one is willing to participate in- it says something about how you feel about a situation that you're willing to go but not fully participate. It's like saying "I may be here, but I'm not involved", even if one is also praying. It's also interesting, because I don't know of any orthodox men who would ask not to be counted, even if they don't accept the minyan there and wouldn't respond/participate in things that require a minyan unless there was either/both a complete male minyan and/or a man leading the service (I've seen standards there vary significantly, from men who will participate as long as a man is leading to men who will do so regardless of who is leading as long as there's a male minyan present, to those who just say "ok I'm here, when in Rome do as the Romans", to those who won't go). So there they'd be a passive participant even when not an active participant.
I suppose that makes such women more behaviorally consistant than the men- that they're acting to make sure that their standards aren't violated for them. On the other hand, the men might be so used to being counted that it wouldn't even be a question, since if there was a male minyan they would accept it as valid, I'm presuming- at least they have as far as I've seen. Anyways, they could hardly say "only count me if there are 9 other men around", since most likely the minyan would be set, there are rarely only men at any egal service I've seen. But well, I'm also not sure how it all fits in with proper behavior as far as not embarassing people and not standing out in unpleasant ways goes. I don't know where one's personal halakhic comfort lets off and obeying the standards of the community begins.
It also seems to reflect the idea that whatever is stricter is inherently in a postion where asking for compromise is less acceptable. I can understand that- it's less problematic to ask people to be stricter on themselves than they would be than to ask them to say that something they don't think is acceptable is ok for whatever circumstance. Nevertheless, if they're making the choice to visit a context that compromises their standards, ought they not try to cooperate with teh standards of the community which they're visiting as much as possible? I mean, when I go to my parents' shul, I participate, regardless of whether or not they're a minyan, since they don't look for one, specifically (that said, there usually is one, even not counting folks with conversions that were probably halakhically sketchy if at all valid), and I try not to stand out too much, even though I do try to get in the bits that are particularly important that they skip, espcially if they're in the prayerbook. But well- politeness is pretty important, both in general and halakhically. ANd if one isn't willing to follow the rules of the community, why does one go?
That said, I never thought twice about people asking not to be counted: it's the way things are, and so I wouldn't count them, even if it made life difficult/frustrating. (I Would look at it as tasteless if they asked not to be counted in a situation where it's difficult for us to make a minyan though, like a weekday morning.) But well, the idea that it's passive just sort of struck me. This isn't the most cohesive writing- but well, maybe sometime soon I'll be able to structure a more logical and thought out set of comments.
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2 things
As an Ortho woman- I ask, 'why do I NEED to be involved'?
I don't NEED to be up there leading a minyan, or to read from the Torah. Why would I take upon myself a stringency that's not even (Orthodox) halachically required? The Torah is a crutch for men, and it is a beautiful thing, but I praise Hashem that He gave me a means of meeting with Him that doesn't require me getting together with 9 other people.
2. Nevertheless, if they're making the choice to visit a context that compromises their standards, ought they not try to cooperate with teh standards of the community which they're visiting as much as possible?
That's the point- they're standards. You don't go down, you go higher. If I'm trying to get closer to Hashem, going less strict than my own standards is not the way to do it. And if I want to show solidarity or to see another minyan, I don't think I should have to compromise myself. If that's how it's viewed, I might as well stay at home.
In Egal- I can daven there (and have), because the service is so close to Ortho. But should I have it lay on MY shoulders that people think they have a minyan, while by my standards there wouldn't be? I wouldn't want that on my head. Let Egal-people make an Egal-minyan. The issue of men being counted isn't contested, they don't really get a choice either which way ;)
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Re: 2 things
2. The thing is that to me, not counting myself for a minyan is reducing my standards: it's saying "ok, I'm not going to do things that I am obligated to- like, say, lay tfillin, because it isn't acceptable by this community's standards. To me, Ortho standards are different, not higher.
By going, you're making a compromise- after all, you won't get a mechitzah: by your standards that's against halakhah too. So why not compromise the one bit more? (That said, I'm not saying that Egal should change it's policy at all: I think it's the healthiest and most accepting way of interacting with the larger community. I'm just puzzling the hows and whys of the situation.)
So Egal-people are another category apart from men and women? And well, if the idea is taht you don't want to contribute to a minyan that you don't believe is appropriate/actually a minyan, wouldn't a man feel the same way? So why can't/wouldn't he ask the same thing?
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Re: 2 things
By Egal standards, if a woman has the right to not be counted in a minyan, so should the man. That's only fair.
In Ortho terms- we deny him that right, I'd imagine. Or, his being present is all that's necessary for the rest of the men to take it upon themselves to start doing minyan-things, like Kaddish and whatever. He just needs to STAND there, no leadership or even participation required. A man knows that is what will be expected of him when he goes to an Ortho minyan. Maybe in Egal he can have some choice in the matter.
Now, I can see where the question arises- if a MAN doesn't get a choice to be counted in an Ortho minyan, why should a woman (or man) get the choice for Egal?
That is indeed an interesting question. But I think the answers lays in- which is stricter? Since, really, the more 'lenient' DO have to compromise. Everyone in the Jewish community would agree that men can be in a minyan. NOT 100% agree that women can be in a minyan. A man, I should think, has COME to expect that he won't get a choice in Ortho context- - if they need him, they will use him, and there is no reason why he should feel bashful or whatever, since there's full backing that he's doing something OK, and something traditional. (Hence, yoinking nonobservant Jews off the streets to be in minyans.)
But with the women- 1. it's nowhere near traditional (yet), and 2. it's not all the way backed by ever denomination. Women may be unaccustomed to being counted. And, if she's of the view that women do NOT make up a minyan, why should she subjected to being counted in one? And if a woman may decline, so should the men.
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Re: 2 things
I think that after a point, you can't always ask the more lenient to compromise and never ask anything of the more strict. I don't think that it's fair at all, and I don't think that it's practical. The question is, where is that point. Especially if there are only one or two people with the stricter view and a Lot of people with the "more lenient" one (clearly, this isn't directly related, since if there are lots of people who count women for a minyan there, there should be a minyan with or without the person who doesn't want to be counted), then sometimes the stricter one will have to give. You can't expect a room full of people not to, say, let a woman make kiddush (the blessing over wine/grape juice, for holidays and SHabbat) when the obligations are equal, just because 2 people, say, have issues with it because of kol ishah. (THe prohibition against hearing a woman sing.) At some point, the people who are more strict can't ask for everything.
Not everyone in the Jewish community considers it important to Have a minyan. Sure, most of those folks will say "sure, if you need it, I can wait" or "sure, I'd be happy to help, since I'm here", but still... I think that it's somewhat coercive to pressure non-observant Jews into coming to make a minyan. Sure, if they're interested- but when you're grabbing them from work, and they're anxious to get back, etc, etc- I don't think it's such a good thing at all. But again- that's a different issue.
But if a woman is making a choice to go somewhere where she knows that women Are counted, and there are Orthodox/trad options available, then to some extent she's made a choice to be in a position where she'd be counted. (Not saying that I'd count her, just that I can very much see why it doesn't quite make sense on some level.)
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Re: 2 things
And yes- at the meals, there IS a compromise. A lot of Ortho guys are uncomfortable with the kol isha issue, but there's always a full glass on each table for individual kiddushes, which many of the tables then do.
I just know that personally- if I wanted to check out an Egal minyan, I wouldn't want to be counted. And if they insisteed, I might leave.
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Re: 2 things
Don't worry- if you came to Egal, or to any other minyan I would be influential in running, I wouldn't ask them to count you, and wouldn't encourage it- I usually go as far as to convey to gabbayim that someone doesn't want to be counted if they'd rather not talk to the gabbayim themselves. THis is just me being sort of oddly egalitarianly idealistic and well, grumpy.
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The Vortex
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I also remember at least one time last year when Isaac specifically announced that everyone should try to be on time to the combined Conservative services, particularly the males, so that no one would have issues with there being a minyan.
~Mattea
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Chag sameach!
The Vortex
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I think we really just need shabbosdik identifying devices that can label how we count minyanim and for what sorts, if any, we should count, and the gabbayim can appoint a minyan counter, and then we can just angst about who's showed up rather than who counts. But that isn't so much a halakhic solution as an ideological one, which doesn't actually help solve the problem so much.
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