How Egalitarian is Egalitarian?

[debka_notion]

So in the last big-Jewish-post (on counting non-egal women in an egal minyan, where egal is gender-egalitarian, for my pickier readers), I remembered that Egal here also has an interesting attitude (which has been changing and vacillating: it's definitely an in-process thing) on people who don't use certain ritualwear. A lot of it is based on long-term social norms from the larger (read: Orthodox) community, certainly. But it certainly isn't gender-egalitarian in its assumptions there.

The particular issue I'm thinking of is divided into 2 areas, and I freely admit that I'm often as guilty of both as the next person. But I'm working on it.

Part 1: If a man shows up to the minyan, especially say, on a weekday morning, when people tend to assume that it's only people who are strongly committed to observance in an egalitarian setting who show up (little else will get a college student up to be somewhere at 7:45 when it isn't absolutely required), someone will dig up a spare kippah and offer it to him- and get offended if he declines (this has all happened). So for a man to be there with his head uncovered comes across as offensive or unacceptable at the very least. But there are generally several women there, often women who do wear a tallit or even tfillin at the appropriate times who don't cover their head in any way, and no one objects at all. No one offers them a kippah or other headcovering (and Egal is the only egalitarian minyan I've seen without a supply of the lace-doily-things. Kippot can pretty easily be seen as beged ish, even though I don't see them that way, especially the sorts that hand around in public-kippah-bins. Maybe minyanim (pl. of minyan) ought to keep a supply of cocktail hats*?). I know head covering is only minhag- but then why make such a fuss if a man chooses not to wear one?

Part 2: Both men and women are given assorted honors in the community, and with the exceptions of hagbah (lifting the torah) and candle lighting, these are given quite gender-neutrally. (I see another piece of writing coming up- but that is Off Topic For Now.) But when a man is given an honor and he is not wearing a tallit, he is often offered someone's for the period that he is specifically in public sight, and he will rarely refuse. There are men who don't wear a tallit customarily because they don't have one or think it is not necessary, and there are men who don't wear one because they wear a tallit-katan (a 4--cournered undergarment with the knotted fringes on each corner that fulfill the mitzvah-requirement that the tallit fulfills in a more decorative and prayer-time specific way), and don't believe that unmarried men should wear a tallit except when actively participating in a service. Either way, the offer is made, and usually accepted. Women (who yes, are less likely to wear a tallit: some folks feel like it's men's clothing, and therefore forbidden, or they jsut aren't interested in wearing one.) are less likely to be offered a tallit. I've noticed this even at mincha (the afternoon prayer) where no one besides the people actively participating wear a tallit. So a woman who normally wears a tallit in the morning will have an honor and not be offered a tallit when a man who doesn't wear one except when asked to will be offered one and accept. Here the folks at the minyan are getting better about offering- but it's an interesting statement that they/we have to think consciously to do so, when with men it's an assumption.


*Preferably the ones without veiling over the eyes: religious head coverings ought not to send sexual signals. I've swapped into footnotes here because I was stacking entirely too many parentheses.

Comments

[gimmelgirl.livejournal.com]

Realizing that the egal minyan I attend is probably atypical, I point out the following things:
- we have many women, rabbinical students, even, who wear tallit and tefillin, but do not wear a kippah or any type of head covering. I suppose that is because it is minhag, but I've never been able to figure it out.
- the tallit thing is also common - there are many at my minyan who wear tefillin, but no tallit because they are not married, or are wearing tallit katan. Usually it's both, though. Most of the unmarried folk in my minyan wear a tallit.
- my minyan is mostly comprised of rabbinical and cantorial students, with many education students and grad students who are also a little more committed than your average student... That being said, a number of the women present who are not rabbinical students (and therefore not required by the school to wear accept all mitzvot - i.e., be completely "egalitarian") do not wear tefillin.
-that brings me to my last point, I guess: to me, egalitarian is egalitarian is egalitarian. i do find it interesting to be in favor of being counted in a minyan, and in favor of accepting aliyot, but then not wearing tefillin. to me, if you are gonna take on the mitzvot from which one could argue women were halachically exempt, one shouldn't pick and choose.
-finally, as to hagbah, a woman can do hagbah, and a man can light candles.

Hag Sameach!

[doodah.livejournal.com]

Actually, if they are single and don't have mothers who light with them in mind (or married with wives who don't light, or in a different time zone from their mother/wife, etc.), men are obligated to light for themselves. I know plenty of guys who do. I've always thought it was a nice ritual for guys or girls.

I've never seen a woman do hagbah in shul - probably because I've always davened orthodox! - but I've danced with the Torah for Simchas Torah, and I bet plenty of women are strong enough to do the lifting. (Assuming that their not doing hagbah is a strength issue, seeing as how most communities would rather not fast for 40 days if the Torah falls and seeing as men are stereotypically stronger than women.)

I like this post. It reminded me of this story: I was teaching at a conservative shul last year. Things were going well, despite some minor "disagreements" over lesson plans (I wanted to teach kashrut), until it was my class's turn to lead Shabbat davening. They invited me for that Shabbos, and I agreed to come under the conditions that I would be able to sit quietly in the front row, off towards one side, in case the kids needed me, and then slip out right before the Amidah. When I got there, the principal and the rabbi forced me to both come up onto the "stage" near the bimmah (weird shul layout) and wear a stupid lace doily thing - on threat of my job. I know that wouldn't be a big deal for most people, but I was embarrassed and furious. The main reason I don't think I could daven with a conservative minyan: I hate the feeling of people looking at me. Sooooo much. I know, I know - "they're probably all concentrating on davening" - but still. The mechitzah makes me feel safe. I don't look at anyone else, and I don't feel like anyone else is looking at me.

I'm pretty sure that total egalitarianism would be impossible. Which is sad.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

I have seen women do hagbah once or twice, and I know that men are obligated- but what we're talking about isn't lighting for themselves, it's lighting "for" the minyan, between minchah and kabbalat shabbat. Mostly it gets used (from a gabbay's perspective) as an honor for girls who are sort of shy of more complex participation or who aren't egal. Presumably lots of people will have lit before coming anyways.

So your employers renegged on their agreement? Ugh. That said, I feel much more on display at Orthodox shuls- where I feel like people are going to judge me by what I'm wearing (what standard of tzniut, what I have or don't have on my head, etc, etc: someone came up to me and told me that I don't have to cover my hair until I get married once), with whom I sit or don't, etc. In Conservative settings, I'm just part of the community.

[doodah.livejournal.com]

That's so interesting...I guess since I dress tzniusly anyhow (and since a few girls always show up in short sleeves, pants, short skirts, see-through shirts, low-cut shirts, etc.) and always sit in the same place (in the front, where I have no idea who is looking at me) and know most of the people in the room (whose opinions about my appearance don't mean a thing to me), davening with BOO is not a big deal for me. At other ortho shuls, women rarely come, so I also feel comfortable.

I feel so claustrophobic when other people are within touching distance during davening. I just want it to be me and Hashem and to be able to forget about everyone else in the room for those few minutes. Perhaps I'm not cut out for community davening. :) That being said, I am still going to try to come to Egal, just once, to see what it's like.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

I usually like to have some space when I'm davening, and more so if I'm in an insecure mood. But there are times when knowing that there are people right near me is a comfort and contributes rather than injures my prayer experience. There are some sorts of prayers where it really is a community affair, or where having a community there makes it more powerful. Sometimes I do have a more powerful/personal experience praying on my own, but not always, by far.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

As for the last point- why I wanted it in a different post, if/when I write about it. It's done purely stereotypically, which I find odd for an egal minyan. We did have a woman who did hagbah, but since few women want it, we don't usually bother offering it to them. I'd do it myself if I knew how and knew I could. But I don't know how to learn/try it.

Yes, egalitarian is egalitarian- I was just finging it interesting that an egalitarian minyan had non-egalitarian underlying assumptions- so that it's halakhically egalitarian, but sociologically not.

[nuqotw.livejournal.com]

Hagbah is mostly about form. Grasp the etzei hayyim firmly. Then pull the sefer slightly off the desk. Keep your back straight and bend your knees as you raise the sefer to a vertical position. Then straighten your knees and turn around so everyone can see the print. If you are strong enough, straighten your arms as much as you can to raise the Torah high. Look at the pictures in Donin's "To Pray as a Jew" to learn. And always always have someone spot you.

[navelofwine.livejournal.com]

I think the underlying issue is that Conservative Judaism is a halakhik movement, which means that past norms inevitably influence our current practice. I believe, as you probably do, that there is no reason today for women to have fewer obligations than men (with the possible exception of tallit katan). That is, however, a philosophical position, not a halakhik one. From a halakhik perspective, one can at most suggest that women should take on these obligations. Does this mean that Conservative Judaism isn't fully egalitarian, in some theoretical sense? Yes. Does that matter practically? Maybe not so much.

The minyan at which I currently daven requires women as well as men to wear tallitot when taking aliyot. I like your minyan's practice better. At present, not all women who pray in egalitarian settings are comfortable wearing tallitot. Wearing a tallit gadol to take an aliya is only a minhag, in the end, so I think it's more important to let people maintain their comfort levels. As more and more b'not mitsva are encouraged to wear tallitot, this will cease to be an issue.

You mentioned kippot. I think that kippot are a little bit silly to begin with. There is little, if any, halakhik basis for covering one's head, and if you ask me, kippot aren't even really head coverings. That said, the current practice among Conservative Jews is for men to wear kippot in shul, as a sign of respect. It's kind of like wearing a tie in other contexts. Women aren't expected to wear ties. Men are. So what.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

My understanding of egalitarianism was that women were obligated in all the same manners as men. This is perhaps because most of my education was in a reform setting where the question was, arguably, moot. However, if you're saying that women should take on these mitzvot, does that mean that if they don't, they aren't considered equals in the minyan? To me it seems that any position other than equal obligation should mean something other than egalitarianism, since if men are obligated by definition and women are supposed to take on said mitzvot, then women have to work for what men have by birth- and that isn't really egalitarian at all. I have this strange desire for things to actually match their titles. Also, how can one justify counting people for a minyan who don't have the same obligations (aka, women who have not, by that definition, taken upon themselves all the pertinent mitzvot)?

I don't so much care whether or not women are required by the minyan to wear a tallit for honors- I just care that they are offered them in the same manner as men are, and that if women are not so required, that men are not either.

Same goes for kippot. It's mostly just a shorter word than headcoverings: hence my references to those doily-things (clearly also simply symbolic but unmistakably feminine, even if ridiculous), cocktail hats, or alternatively a supply of scarves, berets, straw hats, balaclavas or even things like my apparently frightening red hat. But if people freak out when men don't have a somehow covered head, why don't they even notice when women don't cover their head if we're really so egalitarian? Especially when I've noticed it's mostly younger women who don't wear anything on their head- the older women at the shul I go to at home wear doilies or hats or kippot pretty darn reliably. Maybe it's my background again where I don't see kippot, silly or not, as something that is mostly male.

[navelofwine.livejournal.com]

if men are obligated by definition and women are supposed to take on said mitzvot, then women have to work for what men have by birth- and that isn't really egalitarian at all.

I agree that this is a problem, but for me it is essentially academic. It becomes a practical problem only if one takes the position that only women who have assumed the obligation of prayer are eligable to be counted in a minyan. The Israeli mesorati movement justifies counting women in a minyan by other means (http://www.responsafortoday.com/vol6/1_4.pdf). (English summary here (http://www.responsafortoday.com/engsums/6_5.htm).)

I don't think that gender egalitarianism necessarily entails abolishing gender. Judging from the number of women I've seen wearing conspicuously feminine tallitot, I don't think people generally want to abolish gender. Since one of the prime expressions of gender is through clothing, and since a kippa (or other head covering) is little more than an article of clothing, I don't think it's important for a woman to wear one unless it is expected of her. Showing up for shul without a kippa is a lot like showing up for a wedding without a tie. It's disrespectful when a man does it, simply because we've invested ties and kippot with some sort of vague cultural significance. That doesn't imply that men are superior, or more highly regarded by society, in any way. Let me be clear: I have nothing against women wearing kippot. If it's meaningful to you, great. But it isn't a mitsva.

Wearing a tallit gadol is not really a mitsva, either, although a tallit certainly has greater religious significance than a kippa. I think that women should wear tallitot, since tsitsit are an ancient religious symbol and since wearing a tallit gadol is often viewed as a sign of dignity or status. However, I'm not sure it's necessary to obligate women to wear tallitot. Again, we're talking about clothing.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

From a practical standpoint, I assume that women who habitually show up for an egalitarian minyan hold themselves obligated to the same extent that they hold men obligated unless they tell me otherwise, and that's enough for me. But on an ideological level, I feel like if people are going to behave equally for something, they should really mean it, otherwise what's the point?

Part of this is coming from the fact that until very recently I didn't realize that the Conservative movement hadn't fully obligated women who are egalitarian by definition, and the idea still sits oddly with me. Not that I want to abolish gender either- I'm fond of it, I'm not of the sort of feminist who thinks that women and men have to do the exact same things all the time in teh same ways. But somehow differentiating in prayer when the obligations are the same (which I presumed they were, and still Feel like they are, even when I *know* differently) feels different.

Once again you're specifying kippot- is that referring to all headcoverings? In any case, I'm taking issue in reality more that they aren't offered equally than that the offer is accepted less often. Ditto tallitot, although I intellectually feel a bit more strongly about that one since it is a more weighty symbol. Again, I sometimes feel like minyanim should stock a few clearly feminine tallitot. Someday maybe I'll make a few (once I learn to make such things, but it's on the to-do list) and donate them to this minyan/future minyanim I G_d willing attend.

My Two Shekalim.

[lordameth.livejournal.com]

To my mind, the rules of kipot and tallit apply to men in a "you must do this" kind of way, and, in an egal service, apply to women in a "you may do this" kind of way. In fact, seeing women wear kipot still bugs me, as it's a thing that men are meant to do.

For me, the idea of egal was never about how people dress; it was about being called before the Torah, and lacking a mechitzah.

While we may be allowing women to wear tallit now, and by allowing I mean not viewing it as strange or out of place, I really don't see it as that they need to; and I don't think they should have to. It's an expectation that, within a conservative service, men wear kipot, and tallesim, and women may if they wish.

Re: My Two Shekalim.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

I know that- but it isn't really egalitarian that way, is it? How can something be egalitarian if it's "ok, you Can do this because we're letting you, but we have to and you can if you feel like making the effort"?

Need vs. want

[nuqotw.livejournal.com]

Hi lordameth. I'm not sure who you are, nor am I sure what your background is. I'm not sure how you came to debka's journal. My apologies if my remarks are in anyway offensive. I'm Naomi. I went to Brandeis. I'm Orthodox semi-egalitarian, if you're looking for my background. I'm pretty harmless.

While we may be allowing women to wear tallit now, and by allowing I mean not viewing it as strange or out of place, I really don't see it as that they need to; and I don't think they should have to.

A woman's motive to don tallit (or to observe other classically male-only mitzvot) is frequently assumed in the literature to be one of feminism and arrogance, not for the sake of heaven. Women, according to these works, inherently possess a greater ability to connect to Hashem and therefore do not need mitzvot such as tallit. Therefore, to adopt these stringencies is an implicit insult to Torah.

Alas, if only this were so! Whatever this mysterious female-only connection is, I don't seem to have it. If I didn't put on tallit and t'fillin I wouldn't pray. The presence of a physical obligation forces me to connect to Hashem every day, and I know from experience that the absence of the physical obligation results in non-performance my t'fillah obligation. Some women really do need these mitzvot. I know that I cling to them for they are what keep my Judaism alive and growing.

"Expectation" is one of the most damaging things to a congregation. Worrying about what other people think at the expense of building one's relationship to G-d is a major mismanagement of one's priorities. If a congregation cannot absorb deviation from the norm, it is to the detriment of the Judaism of everyone there.

Re: My Two Shekalim.

[nuqotw.livejournal.com]

Hi lordameth, I know you. :) Moadim l'simcha