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debka_notion Dec. 17th, 2004 02:36 pm)
debka_notion Dec. 17th, 2004 02:36 pm)As I was getting my lunch today, Steve comes over to me, takes a look at my shirt, which says "Brandeis University Conservative Organization" on the front and "Hebrew is Gender Specific, BUCO is not" on the back, and says to me "You know, we have a shirt like that for BOO too, only on the back it says 'G-d doesn't hate us'". (BOO is the Brandeis Orthodox Organization.) I tried to joke back something, but I was rather offended. It isn't like this is the first time he's said something offensive to me either: last time it was a whole string of bigotted comments about Indians, Pakistanis, Muslims, Asians and other immigrants. I'm getting to the point where I really want to do something about it, but I'm not really sure what to do. File some sort of complaint to the student senate about religious persecution? It seems a bit ridiculous here, but I'm not sure what else to call this one. Talk to the Orthodox rabbi here? I don't know what he'd do... Ideas?
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I'm sad I didn't see you at lunch! Shabbat Shalom!
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--Tova
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I stopped considering Brandeis liberal a while back, about when a bunch of us were trying to get people to support the EFF (http://eff.org/), and we had people tell us such things as "I don't believe in free speech" and "I don't believe in civil liberties." It's the same kind of bad-apple logic I just argued against, but it's probably a better measure than bigotry. I also remember hearing something about the Brandeis Republicans being rather large, but I think they choose the largest possible membership figure to report, and in doing so, report such people as me as members, so that doesn't mean quite so much.
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--Tova
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Did people really say that?
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But I also spent high school with two Very liberal close friends (one of whom is
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I love the BaRuCh shirts. I know I've seen the BUCO shirts around too, but I really can't remember what they look like. But I like what they say. =P
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Brandeis swims in religious debate, and usually people take it in stride. Side A will accuse side B of ignoring or violating one principle or another, side B will defend its position, side A will challenge that defense, et cetera, et cetera, until either the issue is resolved or all involved parties graduate.
Of course, that was not the case here. This was an attack that reflects what I see as a very scary attitude on the part of the speaker. If someone told me without provocation that God hates me, I doubt that I would take it seriously as a theological statement. I would be very disturbed at the idea that someone out there is sure that God hates me, and wants to make sure I know.
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Abotu the scene? I don't know- maybe so. I'm working on that idea and hoping.
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if your problem is with one particular steve, id take doodah's advice and let him leave and not worry about him any longer. talking to your rabbi is another good way to address the problem.
if, on the other hand, youre frustrated with what you see as more endemic problem, id write a paper about it. diagnose the problem, describe its ill effects, theorize a little bit. hell, make it a manifesto even; manifestoes are fun and cathartic, and, if written clearly and concisely, can be easily employed in future arguments. you know, its just laying out how you feel about something. be sure to use grand language.
i do think of brandeis as one of the most liberal-as-a-dirty-word campuses in the country. 'liberal' is often used as a catchall for progressive/leftist thought, but that isnt really what it means. i guess it was phil ochs had a great song called 'love me im a liberal.' (http://www.lyricscrawler.com/song/65145.html) you ever see the original stepford wives? near the end when the neighborhood gossip says that a black couple is moving to stepford and why not? its the most liberal town in connecticut, after all. ha! perfect. my own relationship with liberalism is somewhat conflicted, certainly it was revered by both my parents and most all the adults i grew up around, but jack kennedys liberalism is as dead as he is, and that may not be such a bad thing. i just think its interesting how people often use 'liberal' to mean more liberal than liberal means.
anyhow, seems to me your issue is with bigotry and malice, and to that i can only wish you luck. there are some people out there who seriously need some sense smacked into them. when jon stewart had his big hurah on crossfire (http://homepage.mac.com/duffyb/nobush/iMovieTheater231.html) some folk i know where making fun of him for hammering the old 'play nice' button, and i dont think the object should be that old bourgeois give-anything-but-offense ideal, but christ, its hard to have any kind of meaningful exchange without civil participants.
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as for the manifesto, youre the one whos writing it, youre the one who gets to be intimidating. just declare what youre writing about and write about it in absolutist and judgmental terms. the catharsis will be in the writing, not in the taping up. once its written you should post it on livejournal or not. id like to read it, but really, manifestos arent about who reads them.
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and most languages are gender specific, ISTR that English is the anomaly.
:-)
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The shirt was just a gentle joke pointing out our gender-egalitarianism in a vaguely clever way.
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Making a statement of religious identity is not saying that anyone else is wrong, let alone that G-d hates them. Implying that G-d hates me because I'm not orthodox is fairly equivalent to the kid in my elementary school who used to yell at me that Jesus loved him...
AS far as I'm concerned, both shirts are just sort of gentle jokes on Jewish identity. If I'd thought it was mean-spirited towards anyone, I wouldn't have gotten the shirt.
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I know people who were offended, and I was a little bit miffed. The BUCO shirt- while witty- implies that Orthodoxy is outdated and that there's something wrong with it.
But as I said, he DID say something rude. Two wrongs don't make it right.
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The Vortex
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"Hebrew is gender-specific, BUCO is not"
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And then the only people who should have been offended were the Traddies (and this TRAD gabbai emeritus isn't).
The Vortex
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Implies that Orthodoxy is outdated and there's something wrong with it? I don't think so- it says that we're egal, and that's about it. It doesn't suggest that we want anything of anyone else- just that we're not gender specific... It's a purely recursive statement.
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your shirt DOESN'T just state you're egal. It states also what you are NOT. Same with Baruch, but their's was done in a slightly-friendlier way.
But I didn't say you shouldn't complain at all. Just not too hard. He wouldn't have said it if he hadn't seen your shirt first, right? (And I don't mean that it was an "I'm Egal" shirt, more that the shirt said what it said)
But I don't know this Steve person, and he is definitely a jerk for saying something like that. Still, if BOO ever did make a shirt making fun of the other two denominations, the way they BOTH did this year, I don't think it wouldn't be anything dissimilar to what he said. (well, probably with slightly more tact)
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So if I hide who I am, I won't have to deal with offensive comments? By that standard, shouldn't we all be trying to look like gentiles? I thought that the idea of civilized society in the US was that we didn't have to be afraid to go outside looking like ourselves because we might be persecuted... Sorry- I know I'm exagerating a ton, but that's the sort of thinging that your comment engedered for me.
I still don't think that either BUCO or BARUCH were trying to make fun of BOO. I'm willing to ask the leadership of both groups if that was the case, if you'd like, though. If it was, I'll stop wearing my BUCO shirt around campus at the very least.
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But the text of the shirt implied something else, as I've said. Yes, I know that it DOES mean that y'all are Egal... but while it seems to be proud of your gender-irrelevance, at the same time it does criticise those that are gender-relevant, namely- BOO. (since there's no Trad around, despite an already-graduated gabbai, I think that there aren't too many Traddies getting offended.)
And of course I don't think you should go to the leaders. What I'm saying here- to you, my friend, and being honest- is I hope relatively private.
And should you stop wearing the shirt? No, it's cute and funny. But it's not completely innocent, either, and you should be aware that its content is somewhat loaded.
(BTW- your other comment DID reply to mine, but my e-mail took its time processing it ><)
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All it states are two somewhat disconnected ideas.
1. Hebrew is gender-specific.
2. BUCO is not.
There's no mention of one being better than the other! I do think it's completely innocent. Bizarre, but completely innocent. Honestly, I don't think BUCO cares about us very much. :)
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Call me a prickly pear, but I did pick up on some animosity in the shirt.
It doesn't mean I don't LIKE the shirt. If I were Egal, I sure would get it.
But if I picked up on something, I'm sure someone else might have, too.
(And I'm sorry, guys, but it doesn't really matter how many people tell me that the shirt was meant innocently. I can't change the way I initially felt over the shirts. I was a little taken back, but then relaxed enough to enjoy them.)
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The other way to look at what he said was: "You know, we have a shirt like that for BOO too, only on the back it says 'G-d doesn't [ACTUALLY] hate us'" -- that makes a HUGE difference. I was not there, but anything is possible.
"I'm getting to the point where I really want to do something about it, but I'm not really sure what to do. File some sort of complaint to the student senate about religious persecution? It seems a bit ridiculous here, but I'm not sure what else to call this one." -- My suggestion: talk to him about it; very little gets solved in silence, and even less with authorities.
Huzzah!
The Vortex
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The Vortex
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I don't think the BUCO shirt is rude at all. I do find the slogan to be quite odd because, really, how can one, unless one is transgendered or genderless, not be "gender-specificied"? I imagine that BUCO recognizes who is a male and who is a female within their minyan, regardless of whether they care to do anything about it. I thought about the shirt for far too long in women & the bible (easy enough to do in that class) and now giggle whenever I see someone wearing it. I don't think many of the people wearing the shirts are aiming to be genderless - or vaguely gendered - just equally gendered.
And there's nothing wrong with that or rude about that in the slightest. It's not "we're equal AND WE'RE BETTER" or "we're equal, you're not, YOU'RE WORSE", it's just - blah. It's not a shirt about anyone but themselves. Which makes sense. As it's a BUCO shirt. And hey! It's a shirt! It's only a shirt! What about BOO's "top ten ways you know that you're in BOO" shirt from simchas torah '03 that offended half of the people in BOO? :)
(aaaand...i'm done rambling. hooray!)
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And thanks for verifying that I wasn't out of my mind for not seeing something offensive in that shirt.
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I wasn't cool enough to know that we could order those shirts, and i didn't really get the point.
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I gave one of them (from my freshman year) to my little brother when he ran out of clothing, and he thinks it is for Hallowe'en (it says "BOO" in Greek letters). I think all of the BOO shirts I've seen, with the possible exception of this year's which was just stupid, have been borderline offensive.
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Since there are other points against the Steve in question, I'll try not to defend him. But I will state that my interpretation of his statement was rather different from yours.
I found in my time at Brandeis that if you're Orthodox and involved in a religious discussion with a BUCO or Baruch member, you're required to be quiet and not argue your point because it would be wrong to suggest that Orthodoxy is right and someone else was wrong.
I saw this comment as a person complaining about this frustration. Telling a person wearing a shirt stating "Hebrew is Gender-Specific; BUCO is Not" that 'Hey, I'm Orthodox and God DOESN'T hate me, really God doesn't, despite what you seem to think judging by the social rules about what I'm allowed to say!' is an expression of frustration.
I wouldn't make that expression, because I do believe in keeping my mouth shut. But what I found at Brandeis was that when people in other branches of Judaism were telling me about their branches, I had to keep my mouth shut or hear my views be taken apart, mocked, and accused of nearly any crime you can name. Sometimes I had to hear it anyhow. Walking through minefields is good practice, but there were times I wished I could defend myself.
God doesn't hate me, and I believe God doesn't hate my views. But many religious liberals at Brandeis seem to think God does. And Maya, if you were one of them I wouldn't be writing this to you, so don't get concerned. *hugs*
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But the way you put it, I can see what you're saying. I just know that I wouldn't say anything like that, and that I felt attacked by what this person said. I wish we could "all just get along", or at least stop pushing our ideas at each other, and relax that we don't all agree, Jews probably have never all agreed, and leave it at that. Oh well, so much for hope.