Another Returning Theme

[debka_notion]

Recently zodaicmg and I were discussing one of those repetitive themes in my life: Brave New World. (The history here is that I wrote my college essay- the one I sent to the schools I got into: the other schools mostly got an essay about my relationship with my sister that my mother loved, and which I wasn't thrilled with originally, but about which I was persuaded. But I was really proud of the Brave New World essay: it was on why sadness was essential to being able to perceive and therefore experience happiness. And that's one of those things that's rather important in how I look at my life.)

In any case, we were discussing why Brave New World portrayed a distopia rather than a utopia, with him arguing that the system was perfect, and therefore should be considered a utopia. He admitted that people in that system wouldn't be people as we perceive them, and that it can't seem like a utopia to us- but that it would be for them, and that contentment was higher than happiness. We argued it for a while (with several other people, tovah623 included), and gave up. But I'm starting to see why we couldn't agree: he was looking at it as a system, not as a matter of a utopic existance for any individual. I tend to see any theoretical society as utopic/distopic based on the happiness of any individual, not as a matter of contentment because of a lack of other awareness. How can something be perfect if no one is aware of the idea of perfection or imperfection as such? I'm not sure a utopia could exist, even if they were theoretically possible, because people would cease to be aware that it was utopic if that was what they expected, and then it wouldn't be a utopia anymore because people couldn't be aware of emotions if all they perceived was pleasant- it would just up the sensitivity to unpleasantness. But in any case, I don't think the perfection or workings of a system can make a society- a society is based on a grouping of individuals.

Completely randomly- I just looked over, and there's a AA battery sticking out from the bottom of the seat of my chair. I am very, very confused.

Comments

[thevortex.livejournal.com]

But I was really proud of the Brave New World essay: it was on why sadness was essential to being able to perceive and therefore experience happiness. And that's one of those things that's rather important in how I look at my life.

And, yet, the avoidance of sadness drives people to do all sorts of crazy things. And people also work very hard to remove sadness from people's lives. Where is the balance, do you think?

(Just starting a debate, *snicker*)

The Vortex

[jessebeller.livejournal.com]

can we read your brave new world essay?
or, at least , can i?

also, ill point out that utopia is a term that predates dystopia, and before the coining of the latter in the late 19th century, the former was often used to describe both 'negative' and 'positive' ideal, fictionalized communities. many scholars of the form note that the difference between utopia and dystopia lies largely in the eye of the beholder.

ill also recall one of the few good ideas posed by the matrix, namely when agent smith recalls the perfect digital matrix society, and the perfection is rejected by the human consciousness. 'entire crops were lost,' he observed. is the human psyche so averse to perfection as to be unable to function under perfect conditions? is human happiness directly opposed to its own acheivement?

there are some interesting questions raised.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

I can find it and post it/send it to you, as long as I still have it, and I'm pretty sure that I do. Will do shortly.

That eye-of-the-beholder phenomenon is exactly what was at play here. zodiacmg was really wanting to see it as a dystopia, and by the perspective he put forth, couldn't find a logical way to do so, which is basically what we were struggling with. A conflict of emotional perception and logical perception.

I wouldn't be surprised if we are set up to be unable to tolerate perfection. To some extent, I think that's what the Garden of Eden story is trying to explain, much more than issues of good and evil.

[zodiacmg.livejournal.com]

speaking of Gan Eden, were AdAm and CHava not like those who resided in ignorant bliss in Brave New World (in a different way of course)? They knew object truth - right and wrong - but they had no concept of good or bad, as in BNW, or that type of (dis)utopia where the people are utterly ignorant and happy with it... they say that "what you don't know can't hurt you," and when no one knows, then there is nothing to fear, and without fear.... one can be content... at least, that is one hypothesis

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

Well, I'd argue that the residents of BNW weren't living in bliss- if they were, they wouldn't need violent passion surrogates or pregnancy surrogates. There's, something missing in their world that they have to substitute for, and they Know that they're substituting for it, even though they may not understand exactly what it is that is being substituted for.

The thing is that what you don't know Can hurt you, all too often. And just because you don't know to be afraid of something doesn't mean that it can't bother you or hurt you. Ignorance is bliss only in the very temporary sense.

[zodiacmg.livejournal.com]

ignorance as bliss only falls apparent when you loose ignorance, so long as that ignorance is maintained, by some means, then the bliss is not lost - soma.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

That isn't ignorance, that's drugging- I maintain that happiness that is purely the result of chemical manipulation isn't true happiness. Bliss perhaps, but not happiness, and happiness is much preferable to bliss. Ignorance as bliss also only tends to apply to information, not experience.

[zodiacmg.livejournal.com]

hmm.... a life entirely of bliss, or a life where sometimes "true happiness" pops up when it feels like it...

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

I think that perhaps true happiness can be worked at. There's happiness that is made greater by the surprise factor, and there is happiness that comes from the satisfaction of having made yourself happy, and they are both worthwhile. But neither is possible in a world without sadness as well.

[thevortex.livejournal.com]

Wow! I am enjoying reading your debate. Let me toss a few coals in:

1) While happiness is an emotion, it IS the result of a chemical reaction (which is why bipolars, who have a chemical imbalance, shift between extreme happiness and sadness). Put more of the right chemicals in the brain, and the person will feel very happy indeed (hence the name of drug "ecstasy" -- people under the influence of that drug sometimes cannot get angry even if they had every reason to do so). With that in mind, I like debka_notion's differentiation between different kinds of happiness. But, I think, debka_notion, that perhaps you should delineate them differently, precisely because happiness IS a chemical result. For example, your definition of true happiness might be called "satisfaction." The main point here is, there is a difference between an emotion (chemical) and an experience (systematic).

2) Ignorance as bliss also only tends to apply to information, not experience. Some people would argue that it is better when one does not know what he is missing...

3) Ignorance is bliss only in the very temporary sense. As zodiacmg points out, its more conditional than it is temporary. And one thing to keep in mind with respect to BNW is that the reader has a John Savage position. That is to say that they have a more omniscient perspective outside of the system. From inside the system, many things may not be so apparent, particularly given conditioning from birth. And, even when things are apparent, many people still run like hell from the truth, desperately afraid of what the truth might mean.

I look forward to what y'all shall come up with in this discussion -- been thinking a lot about it.

HUZZAH!

The Vortex

Utopia/distopia

[yemeknight.livejournal.com]

If you can't have a utopia, can you have a distopia? I certainly don't think that the people of Brave New World are LESS happy than people today are.
What's to say that the people of 1984 are miserable? They certainly have pride and patriotism...

Re: Utopia/distopia

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

I'm not entirely sure that a real dystopia is possible- I'd be tempted to think not. But they can still be written. Fiction is different from reality. BUt well, I think the people of BNW are less happy in some ways, simply by their lack of understanding of happiness and sadness.

Pride and Patriotism? Sure- some of them. But the proles? They don't seem too happy, nor too proud. Neither does our protagonist. They seem to drag themselves through their existance.