THe Concept of Counting Minyan

An interesting thought that I was talking about over the holiday, rather than a listing of my emotive ups and downs of the last 3 days, when I slept and to whom I spoke, and how my prayer experience was: I've been doing enough of that lately, and it must be dull.

So, I was talking to Steve about minyan stuff, and a lot of it derived from the fact that she grew up in an orthodox setting, although her mother's family is conservative egal. So I was asking her if she accepted being counted for a minyan at egal, since we do make it a specific policy that if someone asks not to be counted for the minyan, we won't do so, since we want to be able to have non-egal visitors if they want to check it out/be there for some other reason. But she was talking about how she always viewed it as a passive sort of behavior: either they count you or not. After all, in an orthodox minyan, a man couldn't go to a minyan and ask not to be counted and have that request acted upon unless there was a halakhic reason not to count him (like say, he hadn't finished his conversion). I'm taking her word on that one- I've never seem a man make that request: I don't know why he'd have any reason to. ANyone who can think of counter examples to any of this or affirmations- please let me know. Therefore she said she wouldn't ask not to be counted for a minyan, regardless of whether or not she'd rather hold by only an unmixed (aka, only men) minyan or not- something on which I don't actually know her precise opinion.

It was just a curious thought, since I've heard more people object to not counting for a minyan than to separate seating/mechitzah (the curtain/barrier between men and women in Orthodox synagogues), at least among the more observant portion of the non-Orthodox Jewish community. And certainly it has felt a bit odd the couple of time when I've been with 9 men in an orthodox context: to my mind there's a minyan, to their minds there isn't, so I'm in the clear to say the prayers that require a minyan and they aren't until they find another man. But still- I accept the rules of conduct wherever I go, and that's part of the deal. So I guess this is only the reverse. But I know that most Orthodox women would be pretty unhappy with the concept, even the ones who would willingly be in a non-gender-segregated prayer situation. It's an interesting imbalance as far as what one is willing to participate in- it says something about how you feel about a situation that you're willing to go but not fully participate. It's like saying "I may be here, but I'm not involved", even if one is also praying. It's also interesting, because I don't know of any orthodox men who would ask not to be counted, even if they don't accept the minyan there and wouldn't respond/participate in things that require a minyan unless there was either/both a complete male minyan and/or a man leading the service (I've seen standards there vary significantly, from men who will participate as long as a man is leading to men who will do so regardless of who is leading as long as there's a male minyan present, to those who just say "ok I'm here, when in Rome do as the Romans", to those who won't go). So there they'd be a passive participant even when not an active participant.

I suppose that makes such women more behaviorally consistant than the men- that they're acting to make sure that their standards aren't violated for them. On the other hand, the men might be so used to being counted that it wouldn't even be a question, since if there was a male minyan they would accept it as valid, I'm presuming- at least they have as far as I've seen. Anyways, they could hardly say "only count me if there are 9 other men around", since most likely the minyan would be set, there are rarely only men at any egal service I've seen. But well, I'm also not sure how it all fits in with proper behavior as far as not embarassing people and not standing out in unpleasant ways goes. I don't know where one's personal halakhic comfort lets off and obeying the standards of the community begins.

It also seems to reflect the idea that whatever is stricter is inherently in a postion where asking for compromise is less acceptable. I can understand that- it's less problematic to ask people to be stricter on themselves than they would be than to ask them to say that something they don't think is acceptable is ok for whatever circumstance. Nevertheless, if they're making the choice to visit a context that compromises their standards, ought they not try to cooperate with teh standards of the community which they're visiting as much as possible? I mean, when I go to my parents' shul, I participate, regardless of whether or not they're a minyan, since they don't look for one, specifically (that said, there usually is one, even not counting folks with conversions that were probably halakhically sketchy if at all valid), and I try not to stand out too much, even though I do try to get in the bits that are particularly important that they skip, espcially if they're in the prayerbook. But well- politeness is pretty important, both in general and halakhically. ANd if one isn't willing to follow the rules of the community, why does one go?

That said, I never thought twice about people asking not to be counted: it's the way things are, and so I wouldn't count them, even if it made life difficult/frustrating. (I Would look at it as tasteless if they asked not to be counted in a situation where it's difficult for us to make a minyan though, like a weekday morning.) But well, the idea that it's passive just sort of struck me. This isn't the most cohesive writing- but well, maybe sometime soon I'll be able to structure a more logical and thought out set of comments.

THe Concept of Counting Minyan

An interesting thought that I was talking about over the holiday, rather than a listing of my emotive ups and downs of the last 3 days, when I slept and to whom I spoke, and how my prayer experience was: I've been doing enough of that lately, and it must be dull.

So, I was talking to Steve about minyan stuff, and a lot of it derived from the fact that she grew up in an orthodox setting, although her mother's family is conservative egal. So I was asking her if she accepted being counted for a minyan at egal, since we do make it a specific policy that if someone asks not to be counted for the minyan, we won't do so, since we want to be able to have non-egal visitors if they want to check it out/be there for some other reason. But she was talking about how she always viewed it as a passive sort of behavior: either they count you or not. After all, in an orthodox minyan, a man couldn't go to a minyan and ask not to be counted and have that request acted upon unless there was a halakhic reason not to count him (like say, he hadn't finished his conversion). I'm taking her word on that one- I've never seem a man make that request: I don't know why he'd have any reason to. ANyone who can think of counter examples to any of this or affirmations- please let me know. Therefore she said she wouldn't ask not to be counted for a minyan, regardless of whether or not she'd rather hold by only an unmixed (aka, only men) minyan or not- something on which I don't actually know her precise opinion.

It was just a curious thought, since I've heard more people object to not counting for a minyan than to separate seating/mechitzah (the curtain/barrier between men and women in Orthodox synagogues), at least among the more observant portion of the non-Orthodox Jewish community. And certainly it has felt a bit odd the couple of time when I've been with 9 men in an orthodox context: to my mind there's a minyan, to their minds there isn't, so I'm in the clear to say the prayers that require a minyan and they aren't until they find another man. But still- I accept the rules of conduct wherever I go, and that's part of the deal. So I guess this is only the reverse. But I know that most Orthodox women would be pretty unhappy with the concept, even the ones who would willingly be in a non-gender-segregated prayer situation. It's an interesting imbalance as far as what one is willing to participate in- it says something about how you feel about a situation that you're willing to go but not fully participate. It's like saying "I may be here, but I'm not involved", even if one is also praying. It's also interesting, because I don't know of any orthodox men who would ask not to be counted, even if they don't accept the minyan there and wouldn't respond/participate in things that require a minyan unless there was either/both a complete male minyan and/or a man leading the service (I've seen standards there vary significantly, from men who will participate as long as a man is leading to men who will do so regardless of who is leading as long as there's a male minyan present, to those who just say "ok I'm here, when in Rome do as the Romans", to those who won't go). So there they'd be a passive participant even when not an active participant.

I suppose that makes such women more behaviorally consistant than the men- that they're acting to make sure that their standards aren't violated for them. On the other hand, the men might be so used to being counted that it wouldn't even be a question, since if there was a male minyan they would accept it as valid, I'm presuming- at least they have as far as I've seen. Anyways, they could hardly say "only count me if there are 9 other men around", since most likely the minyan would be set, there are rarely only men at any egal service I've seen. But well, I'm also not sure how it all fits in with proper behavior as far as not embarassing people and not standing out in unpleasant ways goes. I don't know where one's personal halakhic comfort lets off and obeying the standards of the community begins.

It also seems to reflect the idea that whatever is stricter is inherently in a postion where asking for compromise is less acceptable. I can understand that- it's less problematic to ask people to be stricter on themselves than they would be than to ask them to say that something they don't think is acceptable is ok for whatever circumstance. Nevertheless, if they're making the choice to visit a context that compromises their standards, ought they not try to cooperate with teh standards of the community which they're visiting as much as possible? I mean, when I go to my parents' shul, I participate, regardless of whether or not they're a minyan, since they don't look for one, specifically (that said, there usually is one, even not counting folks with conversions that were probably halakhically sketchy if at all valid), and I try not to stand out too much, even though I do try to get in the bits that are particularly important that they skip, espcially if they're in the prayerbook. But well- politeness is pretty important, both in general and halakhically. ANd if one isn't willing to follow the rules of the community, why does one go?

That said, I never thought twice about people asking not to be counted: it's the way things are, and so I wouldn't count them, even if it made life difficult/frustrating. (I Would look at it as tasteless if they asked not to be counted in a situation where it's difficult for us to make a minyan though, like a weekday morning.) But well, the idea that it's passive just sort of struck me. This isn't the most cohesive writing- but well, maybe sometime soon I'll be able to structure a more logical and thought out set of comments.