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([personal profile] debka_notion Dec. 2nd, 2005 01:01 am)
I really should be going to bed now, or really, a good hour ago. But there was a paper to finish, and this has been on my mind of late... (And if I'm up, I should be cooking for the potluck Shabbat dinner tomorrow. But instead I'll write this more quickly that it deserves, and cook insanely tomorrow afternoon.)

So, I've been thinking about Aleinu a lot lately. I remember telling [livejournal.com profile] fleurdelis28 that I didn't think that Aleinu was really saying anything, a Very long time ago. That was before I had a clue about what I was trying to read through in the second paragraph. And I wasn't all too sure abotu the point of going back and reiterating "Gee G-d, you're great, we're different and special, and by the way, G-d, you made all of Creation" after a lot of other prayers many of which include these ideas at various points. And to be honest, much as I like and find certain parts of the cool-down (post AMidah) section of the morning liturgy, I don't do the "cool down" thing too well: I start to get impatient. I love the when-we're-not-too-happy-and-not-too-sad Psalm, but it's hard to get into Psalms again after the Amidah. But regardless...

My Hebrew has slowly improved over the last few years, and I've learned a lot about theology and the like. And so- yes, the Aleinu as a whole, and most especially the second paragraph make all sorts of theological problems. And I really liked the idea that I got in Liturgy class last year where the two paragraphs are sort of an attempt at parallel between creation in the past and our hope for redemption in the future (which would work even better if the bowing shtick were at the end of the first paragraph. But it Still works quite well). But well, that just brings me back to the same problem- it's an awfully We're-Right-You're-Wrong idea of redemption. And well, I tend to feel that when we really merit redemption (as much as I tend to actually think seriously about redemption in that way: it's something I believe in, but which really doesn't impact my life much, so I haven't thought about it enough. I really ought to. That and the issue of the afterlife if there is one. And related issues.) it might be, well, Because we aren't quite so Self focused. So it feels a little bit like a contradiction.

And yet- there's a part of me that really, really Likes that paragraph. It would make life so much simpler. But I'm not sure it would work- if everyone believed what we believe (where we = Jews, or some such definition), well, there'd still be huge amounts of disagreement. But even so, I feel like that paragraph is my chance to out my little inner religiously egocentric self, and give it some air. On the one hand, I'm afraid that it will get to grow outside of the little space where it is acceptable, if not at all admirable. On the other hand- the third hand?- maybe giving it this out, and letting it be a tremendously legitimate out, will be enough to contain it, and to harness that energy for working towards positive change in the world- one of my real weaknesses, I think. (certainly so on a large scale. Small scale I can do, but somehow I'm not at all that counts in the eyes of the world.)

From: [identity profile] thevortex.livejournal.com


...it's an awfully We're-Right-You're-Wrong idea of redemption

Is not the right/wrong bit kind of inherent in the whole redemption thing? The redemption idea for a great many religions is a "We're-Right-You're-Wrong" idea. Moreover, even within the dualities of quantum physics, there are binary scenarios.

About your scale issue, I quote "Quantum Leap":

-"Do you [Sam] think that all you did [by Quantum Leaping and putting right what once went wrong] was help a few people?"
-"Essentially, yes."
-"Oh! I got Mother Teresa on my hands! At the risk of inflating your ego, you've done more. The lives you've touched, touched others. And those lives, others. You've done a lot of good...and you can do a lot more."

From: [identity profile] fleurdelis28.livejournal.com


I tend to figure that at least it [the second paragraph] tends much more to the "And then everyone will realize that we are right, and the world will be an infinitely better place" (which crosses the mind of anybody who believes intensely in everything, now and then), rather than "And then everyone will realize that we are right, and my, won't you all be sorry then?"

It also probably works better from the framework of God-as-truth-and-right-and-justice than "our God can beat up your gods!", though I suppose it's open to both interpretations.

The part that gets me is the scuffle over the ommitted line in the first paragraph, and whether it implies anything about Christianity. In its original context, it's talking about followers of Ba'al. Do we know any? (Though I suppose that could weigh equally for continuing not to say it, or saying it because we know that its implications ought to be safely uncontroversial these days.) The idea of being selected by God for a religion feels a little bit obsolete whether or not it's smug, though, given the ease of finding out about, and moving between, religions today if one wants to.

From: [identity profile] shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com


I remember being taught that the medieval church objected to the omitted line specifically because a convert from Judaism, in an effort to promote himself as a good Jew-hating Christian, pointed out that the gematria of וריק is identical to that of ישו — which it actually is. (316)

Normally I would say this sounds about as likely as the "stupid gentile guards who know the siddur very well" explanation of the extra shemas in shaharit, but two things lead me to think otherwise:

1. The teacher who taught me this is not given to quoting the party line when it comes to liturgical development.

2. A friend who davens Nusah Ha'ari pointed out to me that European Jews who don't use the Ashkenazi rite spell the word ולריק, adding 30, even though the phrase is a direct criptural citation (Isaiah 30:7).

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


Thank you for that paraphrase- that makes me feel much better about things, somehow. I still feel a little guilty for getting behind the "yes, you're wrong and that's ok, it's just that things would be better if you realized that we're right" ideology, even though there's no reason that I shouldn't. Maybe it's the part of me that wants to insert that quote from somewhere in, I think, Amos that starts "Let justice flow down like waters..." in there instead. Not that the idea is so different, if we're willing to say that our system, in its ideal form, is just. And I'd certainly Like to believe that. It just Sounds different.

I don't tend to think that it says anything about Christianity in Particular, but it's definitely a statement about the invalidity of others' religions. Which I, of course (I guess), agree with. On the other hand, it does complicate our ideas of the other major Western monotheistic faiths (and for that description, I probably could have just typed out their two names instead and taken up less space and sounded less haughty), since we're effectively saying that they Aren't praying to the same one G-d that we are, even if they strongly believe that they are- just in Ways that we don't think are applicable.

On the other hand, one could read it like R. Schechter-Shalomi, aka as simply a statement, not a value judgement: "they do this, and we do this other thing". But I find it somewhat hard to do that in liturgy, and most especially in this sort of liturgy, that feels like it wants to Make A Point. I mean, it does follow well as the context for the "thanks for making us different" section prior, but that very context makes it hard to read it as a really and truly nonjudgemental statement.

I think one of the critical bits of my theology in regards to chosenness comes directly from my mother's Bat Mitzvah speech (delivered when I was about 10, so I remember it- although I don't remember anything besides this one point from the whole speech): G-d acts like a parent with a first child, with Israel. Chosenness might well mean chosen-to-get-the-experimentation-before-the-kinks-get-worked-out. (Yes, I realize that that's problematic for seeing G-d as omniscient. There must be some way to harmonize them. I just haven't found it yet.) I'm realizing that that works well considering the shared root between chosenness and the birthright. (Unless I'm spelling something wrong, which is quite possible.)

From: [identity profile] fleurdelis28.livejournal.com


since we're effectively saying that they Aren't praying to the same one G-d that we are, even if they strongly believe that they are- just in Ways that we don't think are applicable.

Are we, though? Who says we're talking about them at all? The original context was about idolaters; who says it's saying ethical monotheism other than ours doesn't count? Maybe the rise and spread of Christianity and Islam is covered by the second paragraph.

From: [identity profile] shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com


Ramba"m viewed Jesus as a "positive antichrist." He led Jews away from the Torah, but he also spread parts of the Torah to much of the non-Jewish world.

From: [identity profile] fleurdelis28.livejournal.com


The idea of Jesus as antichrist is just too mind-boggling for words, though I suppose it adds up etymologically.

Of course, if he was just some guy, then isn't the spreading mostly Paul's domain? (Of course, if Paul had stayed out of it, maybe the result would have been a bunch of largely observant Jews who happened to have a conviction that their dead messiah was unprecedentedly awesome to some disputed degree, and coming back.)

From: [identity profile] fleurdelis28.livejournal.com


I'm not sure, since no one, including him, has ever claimed that he was anyone other than an obnoxious guy out to spread the truth.

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


I didn't realize that one had to claim the status of messiah to be an antichrist. Heck, someone I know got an email a number of years ago suggesting to him that he (the guy who got the email) was the antichrist.

From: [identity profile] shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com


One could read it another way entirely: The first paragraph is the exclusivist one that seemingly gives Jews a monopoly on truth and sets them apart. The second describes a future in which there will be an equalization of the world's peoples.

(I'm teaching this in my Sunday school liturgy class just now, actually.)

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


ALthough if you read it completely straight and unembellished, I'm not seeing anywhere that says anything but that we're obligated to thank G-d for making us different; is there anything that actually says something that claims that we're therefore better? One could read it as a powerful text for accepting and relishing diversity: if it's good for a people to be separate and different, might it not also be good for individuals to be different?

From: [identity profile] shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com


The "distinct = better" paradigm is exactly what I'm trying to avoid in my class. Unfortunately, those of us who grew up with stories of the civil rights movement have a natural tendency to associate separation with inequality. (I think this goes a long way toward explaining many people's visceral reactions to a down-the-center mechitzah.)

Yet another reading: We are different because we are obligated to thank God.

From: [identity profile] fleurdelis28.livejournal.com


Well, you have to ignore the omitted line, which does seem to specify the way in which we think we're better. So you could read it that way, but I think you'd have to acknowledge that that wasn't the original intention.

From: [identity profile] shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com


"Better" or "priveleged"? The line strikes me as having more pity in it than anything else.

From: [identity profile] fleurdelis28.livejournal.com


I guess it depends whether we think that God somehow made us more receptive to/destined for monotheism, or just clued us in.

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


Aka- is the Jewish soul different than non-Jewish souls or not? I get the shivers from the seemingly popular idea that the reason that people convert is that they have Jewish souls that just got a bit misplaced...

From: [identity profile] fleurdelis28.livejournal.com


Not to mention the idea that the souls of converts are the product of midnight sex between the Patriarchs and Matriarchs. Though that's less chilly and more just weird.

From: [identity profile] shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com


Midrash would suggest that God checked with all the other nations, and found us to be the most receptive in the first place.

(By "us" I mean "our spiritual progenitors," of course. If we were they, we wouldn't spent so much time reminding God that our ancestors were relatively cooperative people.)

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


Never meant to suggest that it was the original intention, but I wrote this while I was reading about fairly radical reinterpretations of Qor'an, which admittedly, that author wanted to say were the original interpretation, but still- if one is working on the idea that interpretation is part of the process of holiness/relating to G-d (a big assumption, but possibly relevant putting out loud considering my own context), then it could be valid.

From: [identity profile] fleurdelis28.livejournal.com


I think it is some part of it, but I'm not sure if that extends to interpreting liturgy that we know was humanly written by people we know meant something dramatically different, and that doesn't have the sort of artistic depth that could lead you to feel that maybe on some level it contains a divine spark. I think the seventy-faces approach works much better with things that are considered to be in some measure from God. (I mean, everything is from God in some sense, but I'd draw a distinction between, say, the Psalms and a general statement of allegiance.) If you can't at least find some ambiguity to work with, it might be better to just say it again in your own words.
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