Weird Dilemma: Advice Desired

[debka_notion]

I have a rather odd and embarassing dilemma- I seem to have done too well for myself on the Talmud placement test. I.e. from my test (and maybe from other factors? If I know that, I'd know a bit more about how trustworthy this placement is), they want to put me in Talmud 4. This year I was in mechina talmud- and I rather expected to make it to at least Talmud 2, and more likely Talmud 3, which seemed more reasonable. The thing is, the piece of tosafot on the placement exam was well, easier than the piece of gemara itself, so while I've done very little tosafot, I probably did pretty well on that section of the placement test. So I imagine I could spend the first part of the summer finding someone to do a little bit of tutoring me in gemara and tosafot and relevant skills, and make a stab at 4 next year. Or I could be more reasonable and go for 3. Or I could put in some work over the summer, try 4, and swap to 3 if it seems over my head- which, from what a few folks mentioned about the course this year, I'm rather sure it would be, especially if its the same teacher: but I have no idea about that. So- how unrealistic do I feel like being? Maybe this at least means that someday I'll manage to be competent at Talmud though...

(Also oddly, a classmate mentioned that he didn't think most people took Talmud 4. This seems odd, as many folks skip Talmud 1 from mechina, let alone folks with prior experience with Talmud, at least from what I've seen/heard, and you need at least 3 years of Talmud in rabbinical school...)

Comments

[gelishan.livejournal.com]

I would try 4 and swap to 3 if it were too difficult. But only if you were certain that you wouldn't be stubborn and try to stick it out like I well might. Personally.

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

The trick is to strike the right balance for yourself between three factors: (1) The quality/style of the teacher; (2) the quality of your classmates [this might actually be the most important factor]; and (3) where you fall on the "big fish, little pond" to "better to be the worst of the best than the best of the worst" scale in terms of your learning style.

I really can only advise you on the first, and both teachers are excellent. I only know about their teaching styles in the non-specialized shiurim from hearsay, but given what I do know, I would highly recommend you take IV over III. If you want more details, get in touch with me IRL -- you know how. :-)

In terms of the last point, I was told that they are now (finally) tracking Talmud, so that if they feel you haven't mastered the skills of the level you're at, you retake that level, instead of being "socially promoted". That seems a pretty good approach to me.

[jonahrank.livejournal.com]

I would recommend Talmud 4.

[gimmelgirl.livejournal.com]

i say take three, but i'll talk to you in person.

[nuqotw.livejournal.com]

I would say -- trust the placement exam. That's what it is there for!

You can do it.

[hatam-soferet.livejournal.com]

Everyone else presumably took the same exam, right? So if you did well on an easy exam and they want to put you in 4, and you go for 3, you'll be in with people who did badly on an easy exam. So go for 4. You're too modest, that's your problem.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

Only parts were easy- parts were pretty darn hard, and I didn't think I really quite got it. It was just the end that was easy.

[chinchillama.livejournal.com]

well, if parts were hard and you still placed higher than they think you are ready for 4, like nuqotw said, that's what these exams are for!

[hatam-soferet.livejournal.com]

Even so. You did comparably to other people whom they also want to put in 4. It's far too easy for nice sweet people like you to convince themselves that they aren't really very good at things; consider this a feminist kick up the ass. I don't know your Talmud abilities from a hole in the wall, but if your teachers think you can handle 4, take 4 and don't try to convince yourself you aren't really as good as they think you are. 'K???? :)

[sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com]

Maybe talk to one of the people in charge- could one of them advise you?

Personally I would go for the harder and switch down if it were too much.

[margavriel.livejournal.com]

Talmud classes are now numbered at JTS?!

When I was there, they had letters. Good old Talmud B, Talmud C, Talmud D, and Talmud E. And beyond that, there were 3-credit doctoral seminars. Nobody was quite sure what Talmud A was; I think it was for rabbinical students who had entered with a fair degree of background, but were still only in their first year or two.

[margavriel.livejournal.com]

The thing is, the piece of tosafot on the placement exam was well, easier than the piece of gemara itself, so while I've done very little tosafot, I probably did pretty well on that section of the placement test. So I imagine I could spend the first part of the summer finding someone to do a little bit of tutoring me in gemara and tosafot and relevant skills, and make a stab at 4 next year.

In my experience, I have seen that most classes in JTS study very little Tôsofôs. If that's what you're worried about, don't be.

This is sad, of course, because Tôsofôs is the hardest part of lernen, and crucial for an understanding of the development of halokho. I wish I were better at Tôsofôs.

[doodah.livejournal.com]

I don't know much about levels, but congratulations on your high marks all the same! Hope you're enjoying your learning.

[naomichana.livejournal.com]

Without knowing anything about your Talmud skills or the details of JTS Talmud classes, I would advise you to try taking Talmud 4, because that's where your performance on the exam placed you. I honestly don't understand why you should assume that the exam was a fluke instead of assuming that you're good at Talmud (on which mazel tov!). As someone said upthread, everyone took the same exam, so you'll be with other people whose skill levels are similar -- and if some of you are stronger in Tosafot and others in Gemara (or whatever), it'll make for some great chevruta study.

(The exception to this advice would be if you really wanted to take a particular professor's Talmud class and could only do so via Talmud 3, or if you knew that the Talmud 4 professor was to be avoided at all costs and you could do so simply by delaying Talmud 4 another year. Even then, though, I would generally encourage you to stretch yourself rather than hold yourself back.)