Conservative Movement Metaphor

[debka_notion]

I was talking with shirei_shibolim at breakfast this morning, and in discussing the Conservative movement and the "big umbrella" description of said movement, I likened it more to an eiruv- a bunch of different buildings held together by a legal fiction, and was told that the description was worth writing down. So there it is, if anyone finds it interesting, or for when I someday want to retrieve it.

Comments

[jonahrank.livejournal.com]

'Tis interesting. I still believe though that there simply is no Movement per se. There's just a lot of Jews who go to shuls that aren't Reform, Orthodox, or affiliated with any smaller Movement (Renewal, Reconstructionist, ITJ, Neolog, etc.); I feel that such Jews are part of a coalition of "Conservative Jews".

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

R. Jerome Epstein head of the USCJ already articulated that thought, to which I can only quote Mah Rabu's response:

"HAHAHAHAHA"

And add: "Do you hate me that much?"

[jonahrank.livejournal.com]

Well for clarification, I don't hate you at all, but what you say is very interesting.

I hadn't heard that Rabbi Epstein had already articulated that thought. I know that the immediate past president of the RA had also articulated that thought (I'm guessing earlier than Rabbi Epstein though) and I recall Rabbi Meyer Rabinowitz had articulated that exact thought as well at a recent "What Is the CJLS?" event that was held at JTS about a week prior to December 6, 2006.

It seems then that the RA, JTS, and USCJ all might be on the same page that there is no Conservative Movement?

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

Sorry, misunderstanding. I meant that I (as a non/post-denominational person) would say to someone suggesting I might as well be Conservative: "Do you hate me that much?" It's saying that being part of the C movement (or any movement) is a curse.

If there is no Conservative movement, then why do they so desperately want to lay claim to people who davka DON'T want to be part of something that doesn't exist?

[jonahrank.livejournal.com]

I should clarify that I feel pretty comfortable in Conservative Jewish communities, but I am not currently 100% positive that I am a Conservative Jew per se. At the surface, I'll say I'm a Conservative Jew. But I am more accurately a heterodox Jew. (I've gone through many phases of better phrases: Rabbinic Karaite, Just Jew, Egalitarian Jew, Theocentric Jew, and much more).

I think that people who, like I, don't believe that there is a Conservative Movement, still believe that there are wonderful communities of Conservative Jews. These communities don't need a Movement to guide them; they just need proper communal leadership.

I personally don't know of any Jew who (1) does not believe in the Conservative Moevment and (2) tells non/post-denominational Jews to join the Conservative Movement. They might have to answer for themselves as to why they would preach both things.

As for Jews though who (1) do not believe in the Conservative Movement and (2) tell certain non/post-denominational Jews to become active members in a particular Conservative Jewish community: this could very well be because many of such Jews could easily get along with observant (and non-observant) Conservative Jews. Furthermore, there is huge potential for Conservative Jewry to build the first major post-denominational Movement in America.

If this idea sounds interesting, you might be interested in reading this article by Scott A. Shay at http://jonahrank.livejournal.com/2969.html#cutid1 .

As for me though, while the words "Conservative Jew" are currently a misleading description of myself, I have not found enough impetus to remove myself from the greatness I see in very many Conservative Jewish communities.

[jonahrank.livejournal.com]

(Note for nitpickers: I linked an excerpt from a book by Scott A. Shay. It is not really an "article".)

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

For post-denominationalers, affiliation with anything Conservative is (or ought to be) poison, from both institutional and religious perspectives. (I'm not saying they shouldn't take the best of the CM, just like they'd take the best of Orthodoxy, Reform, etc.) Institutionally, it's a lumbering giant with cancer, and you don't want that to fall on your head. And religiously, it's got too many "rules" and inherited attitudes from a by-gone era. Finally, the name itself is poison to Orthodox people, to people who grew up in the movement and hated it, and to anybody else. IMO, it'd be smarter for (at least the halakhic) PDers to co-opt Orthodoxy (or Open Orthodoxy, or whatever) if they don't want to invent a new label. At least Orthodox is a pretty good brand-name -- successful, good communal life, intellectually serious (in terms of Talmud Torah, at least) -- and when combined with some modifier like "egalitarian" is a slam-dunk for many (not all, obviously).

[jonahrank.livejournal.com]

I'm unsure as to why affiliation with anything Conservative is or ought to be poison for the post-denominational Jew. I'm also not sure either what you mean by a lumbering giant with cancer or by there being too many "rules" from a by-gone era.

Another thought: the name "Conservative" is not the most accurate name in terms of "Conservative"'s literal meaning, but the name "Orthodox" has a funny connotation to it - especially in that "Orthodox" historically came about as a derogatory term for those who adhered to Jewish tradition rather than reforming.

I agree that YCT and other "open Orthodox" groups might be offering some very important opportunities though for halakhic observant Conservative Jews.

"Egalitarian" is also an inaccurately used term most of the time, I agree.

However, I have come to the conclusion that "Conservative" and "Egalitarian" and many other imprecise terms are more socially acceptable and more understandable to most people than anything else I can currently think of as alternatives.

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

The CM institutionally is a drag -- it's a top-down bureaucracy that, like all such institutions, drags down anything innovative. (The CY is a pretty good example, particularly in the way they forced out R. Wald.) The rules I'm talking about include a rigid orthodoxy about liturgical changes, particularly involving korbanot; driving on Shabbat; and a shul-centered style of davening and communal life. People may want to reject things in their personal life, but if the institution from which they gain succor is rejectionist in its approach to tradition (as opposed to creative and reinterpretationist) then very quickly people realize there's no grounding to be gained there.

Point taken about the names, but no one cares about history. (Yet another lesson for the CM to learn.) What matters is the present connotation, and Orthodox is way up and Conservative is way down, at least in terms of communal life.

"I agree that YCT and other "open Orthodox" groups might be offering some very important opportunities though for halakhic observant Conservative Jews."

YCT, not so much, but the independent groups are pretty good.

[jonahrank.livejournal.com]

Offhand, I'm still not sure what you mean by it dragging down anything innovative, and I do admit not to be familiar with the story of Rabbi Wald.

I'm not sure that Conservative Judaism really has a liturgical orthodoxy. I recall hearing Rabbi Neil Gillman saying that he includes much of the sacrifical references. Also, Rabbi Martin Cohen recently published a Siddur for his congregation, Shelter Rock Jewish Center, in which sacrifical references are included. Furthermore, the Mahzor that the RA is currently working on will include the phrase "ואשי ישראל" among other things. I am not sure that these examples per se go against a rigid orthodoxy as the liturgy of many congregations is to each its own, in Conservative Jewish communities I am familiar with. Each of the Conservative Jewish siddurim and mahazorim have different liturgical philosophies and styles.

Driving on Shabbat is an issue which Rabbi Joel Roth is not happy about. Furthermore, every rabbi is the Halakhic decisor for the community for which "the Driving Teshuvah" may apply or not apply. This is not a Movement-wide thing as far as I can tell.

I am also a bit unsure as to what would be the functional alternative to a shul-centered style of davening and communal life for a community of over 600 families.

Also, I am under the impression that many people I know care about history - especially the history students and political science students I know.

I also feel that there are strong Conservative Jewish communities, as I personally belong to one where approximately 200 people attend Shabbat services; minyanim exist through the week easily; congregants may together study Torah, Talmud, Heschel, and much else; shomer-Shabbat families visit each other on Shabbat; and independent minyanim even meet at the shul. These qualities are just a fraction of the ritual aspects of my own community, and there are many other ways of measuring the richness of the community.

I would be curious to know what else besides YCT would be offering important opportunities for Halakhic observant Conservative Jews. In this category, it seems to me that as far as finding a Rabbinical school for males anyway, YCT might be the only option. Of course, there's far more to Judaism than just Rabbinical school, but I am curious to know what other groups seem to be the important open Orthodox groups currently around.

[margavriel.livejournal.com]

Be very careful about using a phrase such as "lumbering giant with cancer". For all the faults that the Movement has, it's still a giant. It has far more affiliates than your own "post-denominational" Judaism, and certainly far more than my own "Relativist Orthodoxy". For now, at any rate, it's a fact on the ground. They must be doing something right to get all those members....

(And yes, I know that their numbers are shrinking. But they're still huge.)

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

It's like a vector -- direction sometimes counts for more than magnitude. The bigger they are, the harder they fall, and all that.

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

Nice. I'm trying to figure out how people who don't believe in eruvin and people who don't hold by them would fit that metaphor.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

Many of such people also wouldn't consider Conservative Judaism such a valid variation of Judaism either, so that might work as a valid parallel... For those who do, well- that's where I'm stuck for the moment.

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

Hmm -- and for them, the buildings still exist, but they're not even connected any more. Yeah, good metaphor, and as usual, the "outsiders" have a clearer view than the insiders.

Also, legal fictions are designed to accomplish some purpose, so perhaps here the people who disbelieve the fiction don't see a purpose to it any more.

[thevortex.livejournal.com]

*thumbs up* on the metaphor.

The Vortex