On Word Use

[debka_notion]

"'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.' "

A couple of incidents over the last couple of days have me thinking, without much result, about how we define words in order to mean what we'd like them to mean...

Sunday night at dancing, there was a discussion about whether a particular dance, Sapari, was an "Israeli Dance" or not- the session leader argued that they don't do it in Israel, so it isn't, while Bat Teiman is- and therefore we do the latter on Sunday nights, but not the former (at least, not unless said leader isn't there). The other positions given were that since the choreographer of Sapari has plenty of dances that Are Israeli dances, that are accepted as such, then this one, which shares the same choreographer, origin of music, Hebrew language, etc, must also count; that since it's in the repetoire of many, many Israeli dance groups, it doesn't matter if it Is an "Israeli Dance" or not- we should do it; and a final opinion that we should do whatever people want us to that's from before 1990.

The other event was much less dramatic- I was reading a comment on sen_ichi_rei's LJ about whether or not someone who is not Orthodox, or who is Egalitarian, or however you want to look at the essential difference between Orthodoxy and other sorts of observant Judaism, and who did not grow up observant is a BT (a ba'at/ba'alat tshuvah) or not. That tends to link into the related question of what is the definition of frum/who is frum. (As if the "who is a Jew" question weren't bad/confusing/unanswerable enough.) I don't have much in the way of answers- but there are decidedly several sets of definitions of BT, or of frum, that tend to line up into a few different general categories. One such category sees Orthodoxy as the critical definition- of frumkeit, of being a BT. Another definition sees observance as the critical factor, and whether or not you want to call yourself Orthodox, or whether or not you want to get in that boat either ideologically or when it comes to specific issues is a different story, and a less important one. (And then "being frum" also has definitions that really do mean being particularly pious, regardless of one's sect/wing/movement/denomination, or being particularly pious For one's movement, and also a sort of cynical definition best conveyed by the term "frummer than thou". But those don't line up so much with meanings of the term BT. From this I think that we need different terms for at least some of these things.)

In both cases, there's a critical difference in the details of a term's definition. And further than that, it leads to miscommunications and frustration developping from them at times. It can get pretty complex. On the other hand, I don't have any good ways of differentiating the meanings into different words, or anything of the sort.

Comments

[taylweaver.livejournal.com]

In general, I'd say that the person who gets to define the terms gets to have the power. For example, you can tell that the labels for the sides of the abortion debate were better controlled by the side against abortion. They did this by equating abortion with ending a life, calling themselves pro-life rather than anti-abortion. In doing so, they defined the debate in some ways as one involving a life.

Or something like that.

Point is, whoever defines the terms definitely gets the upper hand - at least if they do it well.

As for the BT question, I consider my mother a ba'alat tshuvah. I don't call her a BT - I tend to not use the abbreviation. In my head, specifically saying BT refers to a subclass of Ba'alei Tshuva - the ones who are frummer. (which brings us to that other term) However, I do refer to my mother as a ba'alat tshuva, as she went from a secular Jew affiliated with a Conservative synagogue to an observant and educated Conservative Jew. (She did this in high school)

So I see it as an issue of going from uneducated to educated - and also from non-halakhic to halakhic lifestyle.

As for frum, I sometimes use it. When saying things like x is frummer than y. But when I am using it just as "frum", I tend to mean Orthodox. for Conservative Jews, I say halakhic or observant. On occasion, you might hear me say "frum Conservative" - but I think other people say that about me more than I say it about myself. I really feel like it has an Orthodox flavor. Maybe it's the yiddishness of it.

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

Humpty-dumpty is totally right.

That's why I want either to reclaim the term frum/BT and/or reclaim the term Orthodox. That's what I thought Open Orthodoxy was going to be -- a clever undermining of expectations. (On second thought, it turned out to be, it was just my expectations that were undermined. Oh well.)

And I happen to think that the second one has more drama than the first, but that's just me . . . ;-)

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

I think BT is probably the easiest to reclaim, followed by frum (someone I met at a previous summer job described his religious progression as going from "Conservative, to frum Conservative, to not-frum Orthodox, to whatever I am now". So- even outside of our circles, it's being done.) Orthodox- that seems like it'll be hard.

What do you mean by "a clever undermining of expectations"?

Well, in the actual playing out of events, the first had more drama, even if the second is a much more dramatic issue...

[margavriel.livejournal.com]

*Yawn*

Here's the problem-- I used to try to fit all of these words (frum, observant, halakhic) etc. such that they didn't have to imply Orthodox. Then I looked at the facts on the ground, and found that I couldn't find a single non-Orthodox Jew who fully kept halokho (even as an ideal). Of course, there are plenty of Orthodox Jews, too, who don't fully keep halokho (even as an ideal), but the few fully halakhic Conservative Jews whom I knew all ended up leaving Conservatism in frustration.

(Yesyes, when I say "Orthodox" or "Conservative" in this comment, I mean "self-identifying O or C".)

Of course, there could theoretically exist non-Orthodoxly-defining fully halakhic Jews, but they would be pretty lonely. Actually, I think I do know a few people who are fully halakhicaly observant (at least as an ideal), yet don't identify with Orthodoxy-- but said people don't seem to identify with any other denomination, either. And there aren't too many of them, anyway.

[taylweaver.livejournal.com]

er... I don't count as halakhic? I consider myself to be halakhic. And Conservative. (I choose to daven at an unofficially Orthodox shul, but it's just because I like the people.)

[margavriel.livejournal.com]

1. Are you concerned about yihud, at least as your ideal?

2. If the answer to (1) is "yes", then you are a counterexample to my previously-researched findings.

[lordameth.livejournal.com]

I've come across these kinds of questions countless times in my own work, and I find them very interesting.. I think that, essentially, it comes down to a separation between the "correct" definition, and the one people use commonly.

I have always associated the word "frum" with a style of fashion, behavior, and attitude, and never directly connected it to observance. I don't think you have to be observant in private (keeping kosher at home, davening X times a day, keeping shomer shabbos) in order to look and dress and act frum in "public" in shul on a Saturday.

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever heard the word used to refer to men, only to women. Is that accurate?

And I do think the self-identification element is a big deal. Particularly when it comes to these kinds of personal, religious things.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

The dennotation of "particularly pious" seems to be the earlier meaning of the term frum- so while one could appear frum in shul, it really is about your whole lifestyle, not how you look.

I hear it applied to men as well, all the time. Interesting that you hear it in such gender-specific contexts.