I think I've found the magical ingredient for generating tons of comments on LJ, at least among my friend- circle, and it is very simple-

Talk about head-covering and/or ritual-wear and gender.

I guess people with those interests tend to congregate.

I think other halakhic concerns might get close- so, here's one I need to do some research into- what has the status of a shoe, and the acceptability going barefoot during (davening on) Yom Kippur.

From: [identity profile] strange-selkie.livejournal.com


*congregates*

On head-covering: I can't persuade my boss it's anything but a rudeness on my part to wear headcoverings indoors at work, so I do it at home/shul and pick my battles.

On shoes on YK: I borrowed my wife's straw sandals with ribbon ties. I wouldn't ordinarily call them shoes... does that count? :)

From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


"On head-covering: I can't persuade my boss it's anything but a rudeness on my part to wear headcoverings indoors at work, so I do it at home/shul and pick my battles."

Isn't it illegal for his private opinion on the matter to have any effect on how you're treated in the workplace? Smells like a freedom of religious expression lawsuit waiting to happen!

From: [identity profile] hatam-soferet.livejournal.com


It comes under the same heading as cleavage. Social norms in some places dictate that you uncover when indoors. You ought to appreciate that :P

From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


Not in America, and not legally. And yes, I appreciate social practices, in the context of the large matrix of values -- and there's no value in enforcing such a petty social form on other cultures and people who already embody what that form is supposed to indicate. To put it simply, I find strange_selkie's boss's attitude highly offensive and, yes, immoral.

From: [identity profile] hatam-soferet.livejournal.com


enforcing such a petty social form on other cultures

To her boss, perhaps it is no more offensive and immoral that insisting that male employees wear ties.

From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


It sounded like strange_selkie tried to explain the significance of it and the boss still insisted on his norm. (If that's not the case, nevermind.)

From: [identity profile] strange-selkie.livejournal.com


Meh. I'm not shomer anything else, so like I said, I pick my battles. And when I cover at work because I'm working a half day and then going to shul, for example, and someone 'You can take your hat off, we're inside', I just smile a cute smile.

I work in Virginia, and my entire professional life there could be a an extended civil rights battle, if I wanted to make it so. But I like my job, and Hashem doesn't care.


From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


It's a good thing you like your job, because the whole situation sounds like it stinks. I just have a big issue with people like your boss who are so identity-threatened that they have to put their preference for contingent forms of social practices over an appreciation for the unique ways other culturse express the same values they're trying to express. (Yes, yes, I see the potential internal contradiction, but I think it's resolvable.)

You're right that the social practice of covering one's head isn't necessarily the highest value in the world, but I'd like to think that Hashem cares ddeply about your boss enforcing his pettiness on you.

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


Funny- I grew up with the etiquette that it is generally (i.e. outside of houses of worship) rude to wear hats indoors, but having switched into this atmosphere that is so predominated by Jews, I haven't thought that way in ages. Interesting that your boss feels so strongly about it. Is it a much stronger thing, culturally, where you are?

From: [identity profile] strange-selkie.livejournal.com


Yes, I think VA counts as the south, and it's definitely a southern thing. We live tangentially close to the black hatters here in MD, so I don't think about it other times, but it just doesn't serve anything to tick my boss off over a beret.

From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


Going from top to bottom, eh?

Regarding the shoe thing, there's a great summary in one of those halakha summary books in Hebrew; I forget the reference, but someone (else) who's taken Nati Helfgot's Orah Hayyim shiur at YCT might know it. (Maybe it's the Piskei Teshuvot?) I remember that there were three different purposes, but the only one I remember is that you should be able to feel the ground through the shoes. Barefoot ought to be permissible, since it's pretty much what the Mishna/Tosefta were imagining, since the latter talks about the case of cloth slippers as a middle case.

From: [identity profile] margavriel.livejournal.com


the acceptability going barefoot during (davening on) Yom Kippur.

What's the problem with that? The mishno forbids נעילת הסנדל. The gemoro presents the whole "non-leather shoes" thing as a loophole that Rovo used to use so that he wouldn't have to hurt his feet. If anything, going barefoot should be much better.

From: [identity profile] margavriel.livejournal.com


I think I've found the magical ingredient for generating tons of comments on LJ, at least among my friend- circle, and it is very simple-

Talk about head-covering and/or ritual-wear and gender.


OK, you're talking about hatam_soferet's latest post.

I found the first paragraph of hir post-- about the proper tune for פסוקי דזמרא on YK-- to be far more interesting than the second paragraph. I was disappointed that nobody else seemed to care. I kept looking back to see whether there were any new comments on that first paragraph, yet there were not.

From: [identity profile] hatam-soferet.livejournal.com


There's rather less to say about it, one would conclude. Any interesting conversation would feature things it's hard to do in an exclusively text format.

From: [identity profile] hatam-soferet.livejournal.com


I didn't think it was that worthy ot tons of comments - I just felt like blowing off a bit of steam at tallis-lady.

I had a pair of shoes stashed under my chair for wearing during the Standing 18 and whilst reading Torah, and collected many, many weird looks the rest of the time. Hur.

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


Most of the comments don't have all that much to do with your post, really. It's just that a number of people we both know (myself included) have a tendency to go off on that discussion or variants thereof at the slightest provocation. It's happened on some of my posts before too. And well- you can blame part of my contributions to being in a very quiet library and needing to be too aware of my surroundings to focus on my gemara homework very consistently...

I went barefoot most of the time- other than that, I had flip-flops, which I found at Kol Nidre really did nasty things to my knees when I just stood in them. But then a friend brought up the inevitable "Aaah, it'll look like you're in mourning" issue, which I had thought wasn't an issue on YK, but I figured investigating public opinion here wouldn't hurt..

From: [identity profile] boroparkpyro.livejournal.com


when i was in mourning i wore the same thing i wear on yom kippur and tish‘a b’av — [non-leather, of course] sandals with socks.

normally, i wear sandals without socks. socks go with other types of shoes, so it shows that the sandals are meant in place of some other type.

From: [identity profile] margavriel.livejournal.com


Um, most of the rules of YK (or any hard-core fast day) overlap with those of mourning: No shoes, no bathing, no anointing, no sex. That's four out of five.
(deleted comment)

From: [identity profile] hatam-soferet.livejournal.com


I read that as "you don't have to hide pets," and I was wondering how one would hide pets on lj - carefully not posting pictures of one's dog, or something?

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


Not mentioning one's ownership of an animal?

But that would only be hiding the fact of a pet, not the pet itself, although that would presumably be hidden by extension.

Maybe it's a digital pet?

From: [identity profile] ryuutchi.livejournal.com


Anything theoretical that's race, religion, or gender-related tends to bring my flist out in drove, my flist is diverse in a really weird way.

From: [identity profile] jonahrank.livejournal.com


I pride myself on tending not to respond to those as much.

Drat, I just did.

From: [identity profile] lordameth.livejournal.com


I like the idea of going barefoot in shul - adds to the spiritual communion with our natural selves (and therefore with Hashem, in whose image we are made) or something to that effect.

Probably not as easy on the feet as might be imagined, however.

From: [identity profile] lordameth.livejournal.com


As for the girls wearing yarmulkes issue, I just think it looks weird. I don't presume to know anything about how it relates to halakhah, whether it's technically right or wrong or neutral, and I don't think you're wrong per se to wear one. But I do think it looks weird.

I don't know of any men who go to shul in a frummy women's hat, ankle-length dress/skirt, and wig, or who wear those doily-like headcoverings. ...

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


But men do go to shul in men's hats. I don't wear men's kippot- one reason that wearing ones I make helps.

Sometimes I'd rather wear a scarf. Go know.

The thing is, women in pants used to look weird too. Do you find that odd now though?

From: [identity profile] boroparkpyro.livejournal.com


i also think that women wearing yarmulkas looks weird. or at least i did.
then i saw men with long hair wearing yarmulkas and realized that it's not the sex/gender, it's the length of the hair that bothers me. yarmulkas go with short hair! :-P

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


The question that begs asking, then, is: what you think of men with long hair?

I.e. do you associate yarmulkas with short hair primarily, and therefore a woman with short hair and a kippah looks reasonably right, or do you associate long hair with women, and therefore a man with long hair and a kippah looks wrong?

From: [identity profile] boroparkpyro.livejournal.com


originally, i dunno. you'd have to pull one of those "latent racism" style image-flash-word-association tests on me to see what it is. but at this point in my life, having known many men with long hair, and a somewhat smaller number of women with long or short hair who wear yarmulkas, i feel like it's definitely the hair-length that does it.

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


It was better for me than flip-flops that somehow put my feet in a funky position that really bugged my knees right away. Really, my feet only started getting sore towards the end of neilah, which is pretty impressive, considering that we were davening from 8:30-2 and 4:30 to 7:45ish, and I was standing barefoot for much of that time.

From: [identity profile] sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com


Oh wow. I think I was the one who started the whole headcovering discussion. I didn't realize what discussion it generated! I was out all day in xkcd-land!

From: [identity profile] sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com


And I would have said the magical ingredient is Trevor! Everyone loves magical Trevor!

From: [identity profile] ploni-bat-ploni.livejournal.com


LOL!

That *is* the magic ingredient, although Niddah tends to do the trick also! :-)

But yeah, we congregate... so what? :-) We need a space to vent! :-)

From: [identity profile] theshrewd.livejournal.com


On a related note, I was told that I need to use a "hair restraint" at work, and a scarf was recommended as one option, but I feel wierd about that idea because I work at BU Hillel... and am not Jewish...
.