debka_notion | A choice for Practicality

A choice for Practicality

Am skipping the Orthodox minyan's dawn minyan tomorrow (well, Tuesday morning) because it's too much bother to daven, then come back and repeat shema with tallit and tfillin. If I could find an isolated spot, I'd be tempted to just go with egal ritualgear and all, but that would Not be nice. And I need the sleep. But I did go to mincha-maariv today: and was not the only woman who stayed for maariv- there was one other. But I couldn't hear any of the other women respond to anything. ANyone know if there's a reason why they don't respond audibly to say, kaddish? Or Amen to anything? As it is, it feels like this weird cultural silencing, and it weirds me out.

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On those rare days when I get organized enough to make it to minyan (the Penn Hillel Orthodox one) I put on tallit and t'fillin there. It has not been a problem. It's as much my minyan as it is anyone else's. And I respond as I would at any other minyan, which is to say audibly.

There are unfortunately times when I cannot respond because the shatz on the other side wasn't loud enough for me to hear.

People don't get weirded out/offended?

What if I am weirded out/offended by intolerance? So far, minds are fairly open. For a while, I would lay tallit/t'fillin at the minyan on weekdays, but for holidays/shabbat I would put on tallit and daven shaharit before going to shul. Then Rosh HaShanah rolled around (I went to Orthodox, a small tale unto itself) and I realized that I couldn't bring myself to daven in advance and then stand around feeling naked in shul. I figured it was the same minyan, and I wasn't going to surprise anyone. And after doing so on Rosh Hashanah, I pretty much do my thing. Some people have asked, but no one (as far as I know) has been offended.

The only offense I have ever drawn is curiously enough from a few who are Orthodox (and fully observant) but philosophically and practically less machmir than I. These unfortunate situations have arisen outside of the tallit/t'fillin sphere. I can only conclude that such people feel threatened by orthodoxy that is right of their Orthodoxy.

I agree with you in principle, but in action I tend to want to make sure that people around me are comfortable- and while I've found that my individual orthodox friends are comfortable with me davening in full ritualgear, that other people aren't so comfortable. And in that space, I feel like I'm in their territory, and therefore I should try to conform in some ways. I'm not sure why I'm more willing ot comform about ritualwear (or that it's enough to keep me away from there for shacharit mostly), but not about volume.

When I go, which is rare during the week, I definitely respond audibly. There are others...but they might only come on Shabbos.

BOO needs a little shaking up...I'd say bring on at least the tallis...

It needs a LOT of shaking up. I did my best...

Huzzah!

The Vortex

Hmm, you're the second woman who's told me that they do respond audibly at BOO... And the other does go during the week fairly often, I think. She suggested that maybe it was just that people didn't want to be noticed as the first/only person to be audible.

Uh... I think it's really a personal thing. I don't imagine EVERY guy screams his responses.
I am pretty darn vocal, and I have often been the only woman to stay through maariv. There just tend to be less women, and some are just quieter, who knows? I don't think it's a POLICY.

I'm not talking about screaming- just about being audible- talking/chanting volume. I didn't think it was a policy- it just seems to be what I notice every time I get my guts up to go to a BOO service- and some of those girls whom I see aren't quiet any other time... I don't know.

There's no halakhic reason why they shouldn't respond audibly, and several why they should. My guess would be either "cultural silencing" or just quiet people.

As for the tallit/tefillin discussion . . . I would advise against. Shaking things up only makes sense if the shaken subsequently re-think the matter. Unless BOO has changed a lot since I was last there, this is unlikely to happen. You'd probably be taken as an angry feminist trying to offend people.

Incidentally, reciting sh'ma while wearing tallit and tefillin is highly preferable, but not required. Tallit, tefillin and sh'ma are three related but separate mitzvot. If one were to say sh'ma at shacharit, put on tefillin after lunch and wear a tallit at minchah, one would be yotze for everything.

I wasn't actually thinking that I would do the tallit and tfillin thing at BOO- I'm willing to rock boats, but not that big of a rock.

For some reason I thought that tfillin had to include shema to count, at least. Thanks for the clarification. That's really rather handy should I decide to hit BOO shacharit in the future. Although I'd rather do the three together... I wonder whether it is preferable to dod them together or to daven with a minyan... Probably the latter. Probably won't be too much of an issue- I still rather need the sleep in the morning for a few days of the week...

While tallit and t'fillin are technically separate mitzvot from praying it is heavily heavily preferable that you say sh'ma with them.

There is a gemara somewhere that says that one who says sh'ma without t'fillin is acting like a false witness against himself.

So by that gemara, all orthodox women are false witnesses? Except that they can't be witnesses anyways... Or does it specifically refer to men?

What if one had the intention to put them on later? Like lighting Shabbat candles wit hteh intention to take Shabbat on oneself only after one has davened mincha with the community?

Sorry- just had to be stupidly provocative. Don't actually mean it that way. But I'm not sure how else to understand the extension of that.

The gemara refers to men. (I think that's clear.) But if you accept the obligation of t'fillin, you have to accept all of it. The halakhot in this matter are complex, and I'm not terribly familiar with them.

It's not a question of whether a minyan needs shaking. It's definitely not okay to rock the minyan for the sake of rocking it. It's a question of what you need from the minyan, and what you bring to it.

I attend minyan with the notion that I am a Jew, and I go to daven. It does not hurt anyone if I put on t'fillin and tallit. It does not alter their t'fillah. It does not have halakhic impact on the minyan. If my actions rock the boat, fine; if they don't that's also fine. I'm there to daven, not to alter anyone's views.

If a guy is offended, he shouldn't be looking through the mechitzah anyway. :)

And if a girl is offended? =P

The guys shouldn't be looking in that context- it's offending the other girls that I worry about.

I remember noticing a similar silence three or four years ago...I was inclined to assume it was a cultural thing, and mentioned it to a panminyanic egal/BOO-goer (now at JTS cantorial) who responded that good heavens there's no taboo on women being audible, or she would never attend BOO! Which doesn't change the oddness of the atmosphere in that regard -- but it was reassuring to know it wasn't any sort of policy.

Yeah- I have the reassurances of three or four women who are BOO regulars that they do respond audibly. But the women I see there on the rare occasions that I go- well, I see them, I don't hear them. Maybe I'll just have to arrange to go with someone else who is a bit more audible a few times until I stop feeling sort of funny for being able to hear myself at a regular level.

(deleted comment)

It's one of those things that a certain whole bunch of my friends think about/care about. Note that a lot of them are between the same bunch of people. They're a similar subset as is interested in a whole bunch of my judaica thoughts/issues.

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A choice for Practicality

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