On JTS Social Dynamics

[debka_notion]

So last Sunday we made a minyan after Barchu, because of which a particular 5th year rabbinical student told us we needed to skip kaddish shalem. Today, he made an announcement after minyan that he'd been slightly mistaken and had studied the matter in depth with Rabbi Roth, and that really that kaddish only needs to be skipped (when you have a minyan at the time it would be said) when you got the minyan after someone had already started tahanun, and if the 10th person walks in before that point, you can do both chazarat hashatz And kaddish shalem. I asked some clarifying question, he gives a longer answer. I thank him.

He leaves. After which another certain 5th year rabbinical student says to those of us who were left that "kaddish is tied to kahal- if you do chazarat hashatz or kedushah, you say kaddish shalem- it's that simple." -with the clear implication that we shouldn't let the first guy confuse us, and said first guy is just trying to make himself look knowledgable.

It was sort of funny.

Comments

[sanpaku.livejournal.com]

If it's not "talking shop" too much... can you explain to a ritual chair reader why there's an issue here? Maybe this is old hat to your readers, but it's not academic for me because we often have minyanim at my shul where the 10th arrives during tachanun. The rabbi has never voiced any problem with the rule that you go ahead and say all the kaddishes. Indeed, the rabbi usually is that 10th! So I'd appreciate any light you could cast on this... understanding that you're not yet a posek, etc.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

So the like "titkabel tzlothon" etc in kaddish shalem is connected to there having been a formal community for the amidah- otherwise it's like everyone is praying individually, they aren't the prayers Of the Community, so that line doesn't fit. Or so I was told. Does that make any more sense?

[sanpaku.livejournal.com]

That does make sense, but what about mourner's kaddish? And how would that affect the situation where, say, your 10th shows up mid-silent amidah, and then you are supposed to (I had thought) do a regular shatz? Actually: do you have sources for any of this? I think I've tried looking up on this point in Mishna Berura but didn't see anything there. Thanks so much!

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

No matter what you cna say mourner's kaddish if you have 10 adult Jews who count for a minyan in your context there for it. It's just kaddish shalem that gets tied to the Amidah.

As long as your 10th person walks in before the first person to start tahanun starts tahanun, you can do a repetition apparently, and you can say kaddish shalem. It's only when someone (usually for the sake of judgement, the shatz, I'm told) has started tahanun that you have an issue.

Apparently it Is in the mishnah brura, but I'm not sure where. I'll ask the next time I see the folks who were talkign about it. Otherwise, I'll try and take a look myself- but they're significantly more educated than I am.

[sanpaku.livejournal.com]

This is really helpful. Thanks!

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

"No matter what you cna say mourner's kaddish if you have 10 adult Jews who count for a minyan in your context there for it."

And say a few pesukim before it. (SA OH 55 somewhere; it's mentioned in the Mishneh Berurah to SA OH 69 (#2?).) On the larger `inyan I am currently researching with 5th year student #2.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

Keep us posted about what you find?

Interesting that you folks are researching, especially from his reaction to student #1.