Conflict and Confusion Over July 4

[debka_notion]

Independance Day
One way or the other, I've been noticing two pretty different takes on July 4th this year. There's the crowd that's making a point of celebrating our country, and being patriotic and having fun with it. Then there are the people who simply include a comment of "Happy July 4" or something similar. And on the other hand, there's my mother, who says she'll celebrate July 4 when Bush is no longer in office, or Steve, who's current away message begins with: "Avoiding celebrations of oppressive nations at all costs."

In general, I tend to be pretty politically neutral, barring issues that are particularly dear to my heart (but that's idealism, not politicism, I think). July 4th has usually been more an annoyance preventing friends from coming to my birthday parties as a child to me than anything else.

There have been years when I've gone, with family, to some July 4th picnic, barbecue or other party, and more years where we've done nothing in particular. Just like my family rarely goes in for much elaborate celebration of religious holidays, we don't go in for much celebration of secular holidays either, with the exception of Thanksgiving, which is family-centered enough to make it a big deal of sorts. Religious holidays mean something to me, so I go out of my way to observe them, even when it puts me seriously out of step with my family. Secular holidays just don't seem so meaningful- I have no value system strong enough to make that effort.

It isn't that I don't want to live in the US of A. I'm happy here, and have no particular plans to move elsewhere. Nor is it that I don't agree with the current political establishment, so I'm not going to celebrate the entire nation because of it- I don't like Bush, but that if I felt strongly patriotic, I'm sure I'd celebrate anyways. But somehow, I never acquired much of an active patriotism. I feel strongly about many of the values inherent in living here, but not so much about the country itself. Perhaps that's an effect of being the child of, to quote "not-so-ex-hippies". To misuse words and borrow concepts, I'm a secular/cultural patriot. I like the United States enough, and I feel like a committed citizen I think, at least enough to spend time thinking about reasonable voting/drinking/driving/ military service ages, and the like (and occasionally longing for one of those systems Heinlein suggested where you'd have to prove reasonable adult intelligence or social responsibility or something in order to vote, but that's another story entirely, and probably insanely elitist)- but the celebration just doesn't do it for me.

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In many ways, a thought from a conversation I had in high school comes to mind- I think that one is being a better citizen by being vocal about one's opinions and ideas, critical Or supportive, than in blindly celebrating the country. Not that there isn't a place for that too, but it doesn't seem to fit in with my way of interacting with the world.

While I'm at it- why must all the boys in my neighborhood buy firecrackers and shoot them off in the street, making tons of noise, at a building rate from a week before July 4th, and still escalating? There were perfectly good town sponsored, safe fireworks Friday night- why do they have to do their own in annoying and/or risky ways?

Comments

[fleurdelis28.livejournal.com]

Your mother is going to let George Bush define America?

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

I think she's upset at how the country is letting George Bush define it. I don't know- she sees it as a mild act of protest or something. I'd think very mild, because we don't usually celebrate July 4 anyways. I think actually celebrating it will be her way of rejoicing when he's out, rather than the other way around.

[shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com]

Those who don't like the current government should be thankful to live in a country where we can overthrow it peacefully every few years.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

There are also those whom I know, including the example I mentioned, who just aren't fond of the way the people of the country use the system. I think folks from both sides are fighting apathy, from two different perspectives. The difference is where they think the apathy is most a problem- in the politics or in the patriotism.

[fleurdelis28.livejournal.com]

I just don't understand how not doing something no one will notice you're not doing is a useful way to express opposition to apathy. I mean, why not then spend July 4th out registering underprivileged voters and campaigning for liberal causes? I've always been much more inclined to define patriotism (in the context of a country like the US) as working to support what you think the country ought to be, rather than mindlessly cheering whoever's in office (which most of the founders would probably have roundly denounced as un-American). Which may explain why I feel so different about standard patriotic exercises than many people.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

If that sort of thing was a common way of celebrating July 4th, I think that I at least would be more likely to at least participate a bit. Barbecues to celebrate freedom of speech (to snag another of your comments) are pretty unrelated- it doesn't have much relevance to what it's celebrating.

As an opposition to apathy, not celebrating is probably pretty useless. If anything, it demonstrates more apathy to anyone who doesn't know that one has a reason for not celebrating. But sometimes one reaches a point where all you really can stand doing is running away from the mess. Not to say that that'll help- but everyone hits points where it's too much to make the effort alone.

[fleurdelis28.livejournal.com]

Alone? You seem to have mentioned a decent number of people who feel similarly. I'm betting there are more out there. :P

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

That whole situation wasn't me, it was a friend of mine. I was demonstrating that I was pretty sure that not-celebrating was pretty useless. But starting a different form of observance takes a lot of effort, which was about what I was pointing out. Said friend lives nowhere near me- it isn't something we could have planned together barring a great deal of travel on one of our parts.

[qianian.livejournal.com]

What? we can? will you let me know how we can get rid of the Cabinet (an all other appointed, not-elected offices) peacefully in the next few years?

[shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com]

By refusing to re-elect the president, who appoints his cabinet.

[qianian.livejournal.com]

Neither of these options can lead to the expulsion of the heavily salaried thing called "Cabinet."

[shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com]

I'm confused. Are you talking about the cabinet members, or the institution of a cabinet in the first place?

[fleurdelis28.livejournal.com]

There are also ways to impeach Cabinet officials, but a Presidential election is just around the corner and is the most efficient, since I assume you don't support him, either.

[danablanks.livejournal.com]

When I went out last night to see the fireworks, some kids thought it would be amusing to toss lit fireworks out of their windows. Needless to say, I heard a boom 5 feet behind me and it gave me a heart attacks. Even though lighting your own fireworks are illegal in Massachusetts, people still get them in New Hampshire. Sigh...

Well, besides the runaway fireworks, happy fourth to you! I most likely belong to the group that acknowledges it but doesn't go all out. Except yesterday I am happy to report I saw 1776 and sang along. :)

[navelofwine.livejournal.com]

"I think that one is being a better citizen by being vocal about one's opinions and ideas, critical Or supportive, than in blindly celebrating the country."

I think you're right. But I like DH's idea about July 4th being a "Simchat Independence" -- one day a year to just celebrate, uncritically, all the wonderful things about the United States.

[tovaks.livejournal.com]

And while the USA certainly isn't perfect, there certainly are a great many "wonderful" things about it, and I'd rather live here than anywhere else on earth.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

I guess for me, I can't know if I'd rather live here than anywhere else- the only out of country travelling I've done was a week in Montreal. And that didn't seem really better or worse than here. So what am I really celebrating? I could understand getting involved with serious observance stuff of say, Memorial Day, if anything serious went on for it (parades don't count). Thanksgiving has Meaning- and that's pretty important to me. Quite honestly, the US as a unit doesn't intrude much on my life in ways that are real noticable. So how do I know if I give a darn or not, either way?

[fleurdelis28.livejournal.com]

Because a country that doesn't intrude much on your life in ways that are real noticeable is itself a substantive quality that is not a given? In the US we have the privilege of ignoring government altogether most of the time if we want -- even when we're at war one can still pull it off. One can argue over whether that's a good thing or not, but it's real.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

But I can think of several other countries where one could do about the same thing. So how is the USA really better/different than them? For that matter, lots of them are British associated/former colonies, so... How are we so much better than our former rulers in that?

[navelofwine.livejournal.com]

I don't think that celebrating the U.S. means that you have to think it's a better place to live than any other country in the world. The fact that it's better than many (really, most) countries is good enough. It's also worth recognizing that our founding documents were influential beyond our borders in ways that I think were largely positive. That is something to celebrate, too.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

It's certainly something to appreciate, but somehow I still balk at out and out celebration.

[fleurdelis28.livejournal.com]

In the UK, if you have a computer with encrypted material, Scotland Yard can throw you in jail for two years for refusing to give them. They can throw you in jail for five years for telling unneccessary third parties -- like, say, the other people at your company, including superiors -- that this interaction took place. The First Amendment is no joke.

[qianian.livejournal.com]

I used to be pissed about any kind of fireworks because I was an ecoterrorist and saw it as a waste of resources and source of pollution. Now I acknowledge its potential as art but what you describe is still what I was pissed about. The gross thing is when shit doesn't burn up and becomes litter, including electrical wires, all over the bloody place.