On Children and Behavior in Public Space

[debka_notion]

H and I went to the park this afternoon, as we do with some reasonable frequency, to exercise- I do some hooping outdoors where there's actually room, and he does some sort of Tai Chi exercises. It's not unusual that we attract some looks, since he's standing very still, and I'm spinning a shiny hoop around myself in various ways. Generally, some group of children or random passerby will ask me about what I'm doing, and maybe about what he's doing, and occasionally some little girl will want to try to hooping. The last few times have been fairly uninterupted, though. (Especially in comparison to when he took out his sword and gave me a demonstration of his primary martial art- that got a number of repetitions of "Is that a real sword?".)

This afternoon, I guess we went out a bit later in the day, and it was the end of the week, or something, because we got an entire birthday party's worth of 8 year old girls first watching, then questioning both of us. They kept talking to me for quite a while, in both Hebrew and English, and I gave them some basic answers, and tried to just keep hooping, since the point of us going out to the park is to be able to work on some stuff I can't do in my living room, etc. Then they asked about what he was doing, and of course, I didn't have many answers- I'm certainly not involved in martial arts at all. So I told them what I could and asked them not to bother him. That only sort of worked- after a while, when they got bored with me, some of them started imitating and mocking him, which really irked me. He mostly ignored them, and then when he was done with a set, he talked to the girl who was left and asked her what she thought the right thing was to do if someone was staying still and had their eyes closed- should you talk to them? After she produced the correct answer of "no", he asked her to tell her friends.

WHen we were done, we went over to talk to some of the parents of these girls, to ask them to talk to their kids about behaving politely to other people minding their own business in the park. One of the mothers said sorry, then started yelling at H for yelling at the girls, because it's a public park and they can do what they want- if he wanted not to be bothered, he should do it in his own private garden. It was a pretty uncomfortable encounter- their kids behaved quite rudely, and they seemed to think that it was just fine, because it was a public park. I really don't understand this Israeli notion that rudeness is fine, as long as it's being done to someone else. I can see that the mother was feeling defensive, but really, saying 'I'm sorry, I'll have a word with them" isn't so hard- even if you don't end up following through on it. I don't see why it's reasonable to yell at someone who is pointing out that your child has offended them....

Comments

[crewgrrl.livejournal.com]

It's not just the Israeli attitude towards rudeness. It's the parental notion that they're the only ones allowed to tell their children what is wrong. My mom has the same thing - she has freaked out over both cynara_linnaea and mbarr gently telling my siblings something.

H probably should have left it at telling the kid what was appropriate and not bothering with the parents. Not that in an empirical and just world it would be wrong to approach parents, but many parents feel that they own the discipline market on their own kids.

[margavriel.livejournal.com]

I really don't understand this Israeli notion that rudeness is fine, as long as it's being done to someone else.

Actually, in all fairness, I think the Israeli attitude is: Rudeness is fine, whether I do it to you, or you do it to me. Which is fair, actually, but very different from what Americans are used to.

Rudeness is what it ain't

[(Anonymous)]

I've seen this same phenomenon in many ways. I think it is the animal instinct of protecting ones young coming to the front burner. No more realistic to think most will shut that off to a stranger. Possibly to a closer relationship, but not to a stranger. Best to not try to correct others' kids, especially if that parent is in a group of peers. It becomes a territorial issue (psychologically) and after all, your sense of rudeness (while I agree with you) may not be theirs, due to culture, family values, different priorities etc. So, your "correcting" the child is seen as not only an unwanted intrusion, but also possibly "incorrect" in the parent's view. Correctness is a matter of great subjectivity and stepping into that battle with strangers is risky business indeed.

Re: Rudeness is what it ain't

[chaos1015.livejournal.com]

That went out without my being signed-in hence the anonymity. Sorry, YF.

Re: Rudeness is what it ain't

[redlily.livejournal.com]

Have to agree with this. Also, just in general, what would be "mocking" in a teenager usually isn't "mocking" in young kids. It's copying, and it's how they learn about things. I've written before about how when I interpret voice-to-sign in front of young kids, they end up waving their hands in imitation. This is admittedly distracting, but they're not mocking me. They're trying it out for themselves.

In the future, I think, if you really want kids to leave you alone, ignore them utterly. They'll get bored of the game shortly thereafter. Going and talking to their parents is usually a losing proposition.

[(Anonymous)]

Reading this was sad. I believe that the two of you made a brave attempt at communication, which failed, although you don't know whether the other parents in the group felt the same way as the parent who spoke. It would have been a healing moment if the parents, or the children, had been open; but there is the finest of lines between feedback and rebuke or shame.
One of my own fascinations is what happens when people express alienation or offense. It is rare, in whatever culture that I have seen, that the other party does not react with a sense of being offended. It doesn't seem to make sense, yet it happens all the time; & when the communication happens between cultures or nations the sense of retaliatory offense is even more powerful.
Alice