After integrating seminar today, a couple of us were talking about liturgical additions permissible in WLSS (the main JTS minyan), and I mentioned that I'd been once scolded for saying 'ezrat Sarah rather than pokeid Sarah, and when someone asked why, I said that it wasn't in the book, which was in fact the reason I was given for why it was not acceptable.

All of a sudden, our teacher, who is also the head of the JTS library (yes, this fact is relevant, as you'll see momentarily), asks us if we have 5 minutes, and to put our bags down. All of a sudden, we're following him into the rare book room. So he sat us down, and showed us a handwritten siddur from 1475, written for a bride, where the scribe had written שעשיתני אישה ולא איש (for you made me a woman and not a man) rather than the usual form found in traditional siddurim שעשהני כרצונו (who made me according to his will). (Note that the liturgy used in Conservative siddurim just glosses over the gender difference entirely by taking all negative terminology out of it, and instead has שעשני בצלמו- who has created me in his image.) I'd read about this particular version of the text in an article that I read for liturgy in college, but seeing it for real was pretty incredible.

From: [identity profile] wilperegrine.livejournal.com


That's awesome!

And allow me to virtually bop on the head whomever scolded you because "it's not in the book." My rabbi back home does "magen Avraham v'Sarah," and I can't get into pokeid, but I like the idea of ezrat.

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


I did ezrat for years, switched to pokeid because of the fact that it was coming from the text, and then gave it all up for halakhic-ish reasons, so go figure.

From: [identity profile] cynara-linnaea.livejournal.com


First, that is completely awesome that you got to see that siddur.

Second, did you just give up saying "poked Sara" in the chatima, or give up all inclusions of the matriarchs?

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


I gave up all inclusion of the matriarchs in the amidah. I do still include them in birkat hamazon in the relevant harachaman. I miss them some, but not as much as I'd expected that I would. But neither of the piyut-formulated ways of inserting them have really spoken to me yet, so- dunno.

From: [identity profile] elfsdh.livejournal.com


Interesting. I wasn't aware that anyone had actually *tried* to formulate an imahot piyyut. Are the texts published anywhere?

From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


In an appendix to R. David Golinkin's teshuva (http://www.schechter.edu/responsa/0702.htm) on the issue, he appends a piyyut composed by R. Dr. Einat Ramon, "to be inserted after the words 'l'ma'an shemo b'ahavah'":

Navo'ah oholei Sarah, Rivka, Rachel v'Leah.
Utehi gemilut hasdeihen lefaneinu b'khol eit u'v'khol sha'ah.

Translation:
Let us enter the tents of Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah. May their acts of loving-kindness be an example to us at all times.

---

Personally, I am unmoved by this piyyut, lacking as it does to my ear the resonance of Biblical Hebrew and the assonance of medieval poetic Hebrew (not that I can understand the latter in most cases, but at least it sounds cool :-) ). I'm unaware of any of the other ways to which debka is referring.

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


Rabbi Daniel Nevins has written something that he shared with us as something that he's been working on earlier this year. It felt a little better than the aforementioned piyyut, but still felt sort of unwieldy.

From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


Hmm, interesting. The only modern prayer I've ever seen that felt authentic to me was R. Held's post-tsunami tefillah. It deftly weaved together Biblical and Rabbinic references in an understandable, Rabbinic Hebrew tefillah. (A runner-up is the seliha written by R. Sam Feinsmith, printed in the first volume of Milin Havivin.)

From: [identity profile] elfsdh.livejournal.com


I've developed something of an appreciation for the English Sim Shalom Prayer for the Country, which I think is some of the best-written modern Conservative liturgy out there. (excepting that sometimes, I say "teach them insights of Your Torah" and think "but not too many."

From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


I haven't seen it or heard it in years, but I grew up on Silverman's Prayer for the Country and Sim Shalom's never grew on me; I remember thinking that Silverman's sounded more poetic, but that's probably just an intellectualization of my emotional connection to something I heard in my youth.

I do, however, remember a directly-related funny experience I had when visiting a flagship Modern Orthodox shul in Dallas as part of YCT's "visit 'out-of-town'* communities" weekend. The shul davened out of Artscroll, as one can imagine, but for the prayer for the country the rabbi began reading a text that was not in that siddur. I listened carefully and after about 10 or 15 words I was able to follow along, no problem, since he was using the text from Sim Shalom. I looked around and realized that no one in the shul had any clue where the text of the prayer was from, and would probably have thrown a fit (or worse) if they found out. Still, I admired the rabbi's cajones.

Back to the subtopic of effective contemporary liturgy briefly, I think tefillah lishlom hamedina, written by Agnon, has a certain lyric quality to it, even if my Zionism is so attenuated these days that I barely relate to its messsage at all.

* Ick, how I hate that NYC-centric term, and I'm _from_ NYC.

From: [identity profile] margavriel.livejournal.com


* Ick, how I hate that NYC-centric term, and I'm _from_ NYC.

I love the term! NYC is the center of the universe!

From: [identity profile] elfsdh.livejournal.com


The English in the Silverman tended to be deliberately archaized, which is something that usually rubs me the wrong way. What I like about the Sim Shalom version is that it's in normal conversational English, makes sense as liturgy, and, for the most part, actually says something I want to say.

I think Sim Shalom's current Prayer for the Country traces back to a version written by Louis Ginzberg and converted into conversational English.

Contrast that to the awful "Prayer for Peace" in the Sim Shalom. How could anyone have written the line "we have come into being to praise, to labor and to love" with a straight face?

(And, yes, tefilah lishlom ham'dinah is also good as contemporary liturgy).

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


The only benefit to the horrid prayer for peace in Sim Shalom is that I heard it every shabbos for one summer from the mouth of a truly lovely holocaust survivor from Czechoslovakia, and now I can only hear it in my head with his accent which involved reading at a rather variable pace... So now it just makes me giggle a little.

From: [identity profile] cynara-linnaea.livejournal.com


The Conservative minyan at my college actually had to cut the reading o the Prayer for Peace because after a student 2 years ahead of me did a humorous rendition of that line, no one could ever recite it without cracking up. Nearly 3 years after her graduation, they are thinking of putting it back in.

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


That's a really amusing story. Also a little sad- that just because a modern prayer in English might come from the Sim Shalom, it has to be verboten in the Orthodox world- or vice versa.

From: [identity profile] margavriel.livejournal.com


לאה and שעה don't actually rhyme according to the rules of mediaeval Hebrew rhyme.

Of course, who's to say that the author was trying to rhyme? It's too small a sample to tell.

The לפנינו is also rather bizarre. More in the spirit of the way that such texts typically work would be something like ותעלה זכות חסדיהן לפניך בכל עת ושעה.

Having said that, I still find this short poem (which I have never seen befre) to be much more creative and much more appropriate than any other MODERN* matriarch-insertion into the first berokho of the tefillo. If I were in a community in which it made sense to include such reference, I would most definitely use this text, or something similar, rather than the insipid stuff in the new Sim SHalom.

*Note that Yannai and Qallir and others were doing this kind of stuff 1500 years ago, but their stuff tends to be longer, and hence not so appropriate for daily prayer.

From: [identity profile] elfsdh.livejournal.com


Is anyone else bothered by the asymmetry between the purpose of the insertion of the matriarchs in the piyyut (requests), and the patriarchs in the actual b'racha (description of God)?

From: [identity profile] cynara-linnaea.livejournal.com


I have heard that it is halachically acceptable to include the matriarchs in the peticha, just not in the chatima, because there is precedent for changing the peticha to fit the needs of the community. The catch there is that you need a community who finds that they really need that change. It might be something to pursue.

Personally, I include them in the petitcha when I daven silently, but generally omit them when SHAA"TZing.

How do you include them in Bircat? My mom inserts "imhoteinu Sara, Rivka, Rachel v'Leah, heitiv, batov, tov, [some other variation I don't remember off the top of my head]," before "avoteinu Avraham, Yitzchak, v'Yaakov, bakol, mikol, kol."

And is anyone else ever bothered by Rachel's constant insertion before Leah? The one person I have met who puts Leah first (besides yours truly), also includes Bilha and Zilpa, which is a whole other can of worms.

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


As far as I can tell, there are contradictory opinions about insertions in the peticha, having to do with the fact that we're not supposed to come up with new terms for G-d, and the others are all quotes from Tanakh, as it were- the issue isn't changing the petikha, it's talking about G-d as the G-d of Sarah, etc when that wasn't said before.

I do about what your bother does, although as I learned it, the list of 'tov' related words is 'heitiv, tovat, tov, tov" which nicely uses the same word for Leah and Rachel.

The order of matriarchs used to really bother me- because as I first learned it in the Reform world, Leah does come first in their lists. I get the whole "we like to privilege the same one who texts have privileged before" thing, but it does still bother me.

I just had the beginning of an argument about including Bilhah and Zilpah with a classmate on Friday. He does it, and wants to do so when he leads davening here on Tuesday. I think it's a problem- we have no indication that they were monotheists or monolatrists, let alone that they had any particular special relationship with G-d (and yes, I think the matriarchs did, I know some folks will disagree with me there).

From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


I think R. Held deftly disposes with the argument you cite by pointing out the problem is not with new _descriptions_ of God, but rather new _praises_ for God. Saying that God had a relationship w/ Sarah, etc. (presuming this is "true"), is not to invent a new _praise_ of God.

"monotheists or monolatrists"

I'm not sure it matters. I think the point is to have a metaphor for the universe that is not ultimately capricious, in which one's actions have predictable consequences and therefore ought to matter. Whether or not there are lesser gods floating around should be irrelevent to that metaphor.

And see below my response in which I cite Esther Rabbah and Pesikta de-Rav Kahana who include Bilhah & Zilpa on the list. (Again, this is all support for shitot with which I disagree me-ikkaram.)

From: [identity profile] margavriel.livejournal.com


we have no indication that they were monotheists or monolatrists

First prove that they existed....

From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


"And is anyone else ever bothered by Rachel's constant insertion before Leah?"

Not particularly, since that list in that order appears in the Bavli on Nazir 23b, Sanhedrin 105b, and Horayot 10b. (Granted, I haven't checked the manuscripts.) Nevertheless, I have heard several people put Leah first. (I see the attraction, but I think if one is trying to balance the competing values of adherence to the tradition [= getting the psychological comfort of being connected to a tradition and the communal cohension that comes from connecting with a canon] with the value of this particular liturgical change, it seems to make sense to cling to any precedents in that canon that one can find.)

(BTW, an interesting support for including Bilha & Zilpa can be found in Esther Rabbah 1:12 where they are included on the list of _six_ imahot; see also Pesikta de-Rav Kahana 1:7 -- I don't know off the top of my head which is earlier.)

Also, according to the teshuva that makes that distinction between petiha and hatima, the reasoning is not that there is precedent for changing the petiha, but rather that since one is permitted to insert a piyyut for צורכי רבים, kal va-homer one may insert eight words in the middle. (Also note that there is a debate over the meaning of that phrase, i.e., does it need to be a piyyut for צורכי רבים or does there need to be צורכי רבים for a piyyut [that is not necessarily about צורכי רבים].) Be-mehilat kevod mori ve-rebbi ba`al mehaber ha-teshuva, I find that a weak kal va-homer, since inserting a piyyut after a unit of text is quite different than interrupting a phrase.

From: [identity profile] jonahrank.livejournal.com


Wow, that's really cool!

P.S. My understanding is that the two not-in-Sim-Shalom changes that are allowed to be recited by the Shatz in WLSS are "ve`al kol-yoshevey tevel" during the final line of Kaddish Shalem and Kaddish Derabbanan and "ve'ishshey yisra'el" during the "Retzeh..." paragraph of the `Amidah leading up to "Hammachazir shechinato letziyyon."

P.P.S. I do think it would be cool for JTS to have a service wherein liturgical deviations from Siddur Sim Shalom (or any one Siddur) were permissible.

P.P.P.S. I am actually curious how many (or few) other people who would be interested in a JTS service that is liturgically more experimental (preferably within a Halakhic/precedent-based framework).

From: [identity profile] elfsdh.livejournal.com


To some degree, I wonder what the author/editor of the 15th century siddur was thinking שעשיתני אישה ולא איש (and by extension, שעשאני איש ולא אשה, the more archaic phrasing) means.

Ignoring whether it's proper or not in any of its current formulations (I vascillate on the issue, but it's a subject for an actual long post): While מגן אברהם ושרה has parallelism, it destroys the Biblical reference in the text (Gen 15:1). עזרת שרה is what's published in the Reform siddur (and was there long before the egal edition of Sim Shalom), and, as far as I can tell, is intended to parallel the liturgical text מלך עוזר ומושיע ומגן. And, פוקד שרה is a Biblical reference to Gen 21:1. I don't remember if the Sim Shalom inclusive text rephrases the preceding line as מלך עוזר ומושיע ומגן ופוקד, which would seem like what it should do to maintain parallelism.

From: [identity profile] cynara-linnaea.livejournal.com


It does. Actually, I believe they have it as "Melech ozer uphoked umoshia umagen."

From: [identity profile] masteraleph.livejournal.com


Interesting. My understanding had always been that פוקד שרה was the original in "matriarchal variations," and that עזרת שרה was the later change. I'm not sure about the reasoning of paralleling מלך עוזר ומושיע ומגן, though- not that it's wrong, I've just never heard it. There are at least two other reasons that I can think of: one is that God is referred to using a similar title with Yitzchak (i.e. it's not uniquely Sarah). The other one, which I've heard elsewhere but can't confirm its veracity, was a discomfort with PKD as a verb since it's used in "Poked avon avot al banim v'al b'nai banim, al shileishim v'al ribeiim" in Shmot 34:7.

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


I'm pretty sure that עזרת שרה was around well before פוקד שרה just based on when texts published with them came out (I was given a text with עזרת שרה in it in I think 7th grade- certainly before my bat mitzvah). But that order would also make sense as far as the way change tends to happen in movements...

The latter reason for discomfort with פוקד is the one that I generally hear...

From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


"The latter reason for discomfort with פוקד is the one that I generally hear..."

Really?! But it's a word that can mean both things! (I just checked Even-Shoshan's Konkordatziyah Hadasha who lists three meanings, the first being זכר לטובה, with 35 entries, and the second being זכר לרעה, ענש, with 69 entries.)

(OK, I understand about connotation vs. denotation, but why should the use of "poked Sarah" evoke Ex. 34:7 as opposed to Gen. 21:1?)

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


I think the issue isn't that it only evokes one of those, but that it does evoke both and that the since one is something we'd quite like Not to happen, it isn't such a great term. And since there are nearly double the number of uses for the less pleasant meaning, from your numbers- well, I sort of see what they mean.

From: [identity profile] hotshot2000.livejournal.com


Fair enough, but I really think connotatively it's 1 vs. 1. (I mean, it's not like people could cite other verses off the top of their head where פקד is used _either_ negatively or positively!) So I don't quite understand why one should lose the Biblical reference simply because a word brings both positive and negative connotations to mind. (This is obviously le-shitat those who countenance the addition of this phrase, which I do not.) Additionally, עזר is never used in reference to Sarah (as far as I could tell), neither in the Tanakh nor in the Midrash. (But I'd be happy to be corrected on this point.)

(Also, regarding "something we'd quite like Not to happen" -- my chevruta pointed out that perhaps it's necessary to problematize the discomfort people feel with מידת הדין -- not that we should be hankering for it, but rather that we ought to see דין as part of a balanced theology/religious psychology.)

From: [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com


This was me squeeling about having gotten to see a prayerbook with a particularly unusual formulation of a particular blessing in a way that is generally considered to be absolutely out of the question as far as permissibility nowadays, but which some perfectly traditional rabbi in 1475 thought was just fine. Does that make any more sense?
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