debka_notion | Halakhic Thought

Halakhic Thought

So the egal minyan at JTS does not give the first and second aliyot to a kohen and levi, respectively. However today the person to whom they gave the first aliyah was a kohen. And they went on about their usual progression, so the next person was not a levi, nor did they give the second aliyah to the same person. And I understand not giving out aliyot based on that status issue, and since it was established for the sake of peace, I wouldn't complain about a minyan that does not hold by it for the sake of peace. But once you do call a kohen for the aliyah- I do wonder what the best choice of action would have been. On the other hand, they had handed out the aliyot in advance, and I know that once you call someone, you don't replace them, even if you should have called someone else- so maybe handing out the aliyot has some of the same status. It's just an interesting thing to think about.

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Because it's so tricky! I think whoever does petiha should get even more zekhut, since the mechanics are different in every synagogue and the poteah is therefore prone to look silly.

:sigh:

See my point below about WHO usually gets put into cherem - it's liberal rabbis.

I was really just trying to make a joke about you know, say, Spinoza? Remember, my journal's subtitle is Beit Shammai.... Just trying to funny.

I tend to be a bit sloppy on these fora.

You mean forums. Or better, forumses.

Any idea when that decision was made, by the way?

Nope.

No, I meant "fora," as I was likening the communities of livejournal to the ancient Roman public squares or marketplaces used for judicial and other business.

Or better, forumopotomi.

Yes, I caught that.

You know, technically forum just means "hole in the ground," which nicely sums up some LJ communities I know of.

Is that because of the "women-can't-ascend-the-duchan" debate, or because of the "equality" issue?

At Brandeis, it was the former.

Huzzah!

The Vortex

True, you're not distinguishing between people in terms of the aliyot, but you're doing something much worse (according to the pure egalitarian principle you articulated earlier in the thread), which is distinguishing between people in reality. I would assume the former is supposed to be symbolic of the actualization of this principle in society in general. And my kashya stands -- why should the egalitarian principle be violated for "earned honorifics" and not for every person's unique accomplishments?

Sorry, I thought we were talking about Jewish practices.

Ba-dum-cha, thank you David Berger!

Took me a sec to find it (it's Megillah 32a). To paraphrase another movie, I think "that's not the gelilah you're looking for." Rashi there: "The one who rolls the Torah -- from one subject to another, which is done by an individual with the sefer Torah resting on his knees."

If trickiness is the criteria, then distributing the hallah on Shabbat should by far be rewarded by more sekhar than any other activity!

I disagree with your kashya - I think that calling someone "my teacher" or "my rabbi," (last I checked we don't call people up as "doctor") - does highlight his or her individual accomplishments, unlike the kahuna which is a (doubtful) indication of someone's birth.

Or making kiddush and then realizing you never asked what this household does with the wine after the mekadesh drinks some.

I thought it was assur to do necromancy.

Unless the person is a communal leader, they are called up as haRav, which just the rabbinic equivalent of Dr., and just as doubtful an indicator of their merit as ha-kohen is of their lineage.* I'm not so clear on why putting something particularistic in front of the name is so different than putting something particularistic in back of the name, given that both violate the principle of not distinguishing between people that's under discussion.

Honoring a communal leader by calling them up as "moreinu ve-rabbeinu" is emminently reasonable as long as it's done regardless of title (and I'm pretty sure the Ortho-egal minyan at Pardes called up our female teachers w/o semikha as moreinu, and perhaps rabbeinu), but once you've done that, why not have a special aliyah set aside for them as well?

*(And to some degree, it matters much less to me whether they actually go back to Aharon ha-Kohen than that we can maintain a plausible enough local family story that then ties into the greater story of the Jewish people -- i.e., we should have a statistically reasonable number of kohanim and levi'im who can prove their ancestry for a few generations to create plausibility.)

A) That's why, barring some unusual circumstance (such as a guest who has not yet made kiddush and therefore might have a higher obligation), one of the ba'alei habayit should make kiddush (and motzi).

B) It can't hurt to just put it down -- then someone more in the know can just pick it up and do whatever, right?

A. What if, as often happens at places I am, the ba'alei habayit don't actually have established minhagim? That makes it both impossible to get wrong and rare to feel like you got it Right either.

B. Unless you're seated between other guests who also don't know... There's a way to make Everything uncomfortable, given very little effort.

A. That's why they should do it -- so they can have the (dis)pleasure of feeling that way! :-)

B. Maybe walk the cup over and put it down in front of the ba`alei habayit?

C. Maybe it's time to put together a booklet of minhagei kiddush (kiddush ke-hilkhato, anyone?) that can be carried with you. You could have minhagei Ashkenaz, Sefarad, Lita, Teiman, etc., etc. So many possibilities! ;-)

It's not necromancy if he ain't dead!

(I feel like that should be the punchline to some sick joke, possibly involving necrophilia . . . hmmmm . . .)

Sadly/fortunately I don't know any actual jokes about necrophilia- at least not well enough to produce them.

If you come up with a joke for that one, you'll have to let me know.

C. Sounds like a good project. In fact, it sounds like something I'd love to work on. The question is, how exactly one does that sort of research besides maybe interviewing folks. The question is- who would be best to talk to- old folks who remember what they did as kids, or people who claim to have preserved minhag x as it was supposed to be done...

Fascinating. My idea was to open the Shulhan Arukh, find the right siman, and then look at later and earlier sources. I guess I have a more formal/textual definition of minhag than you do :-)

I do:

Guy goes to a brothel, says what can I get for $5. They show him to a room, he starts to do the deed, and suddenly something goes wrong. He pulls up his trousers and runs out. The brothel manager seems him go, sighs to herself, and says: "Damn, Sally's full again."

I cleaned it up as much as possible, but no, it's not so much funny as grotesque. Please feel free to delete this, it's really bringing down the property values of the rest of the threads.

Well, the ideal project, in my eyes, would be to do both, compare them, and try and figure out what changed/why it changed/what was going on with the difference.

Have I mentioned that a chunk of my undergraduate work involved Jewish sociology?

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