Halakhic Thought

[debka_notion]

So the egal minyan at JTS does not give the first and second aliyot to a kohen and levi, respectively. However today the person to whom they gave the first aliyah was a kohen. And they went on about their usual progression, so the next person was not a levi, nor did they give the second aliyah to the same person. And I understand not giving out aliyot based on that status issue, and since it was established for the sake of peace, I wouldn't complain about a minyan that does not hold by it for the sake of peace. But once you do call a kohen for the aliyah- I do wonder what the best choice of action would have been. On the other hand, they had handed out the aliyot in advance, and I know that once you call someone, you don't replace them, even if you should have called someone else- so maybe handing out the aliyot has some of the same status. It's just an interesting thing to think about.

Comments

[gimmelgirl.livejournal.com]

According to the "egalitarian" practice of giving aliyot as Rishonah, Sheniyah, and Shelishit, it doesn't matter if the first person happens to be a kohein. Rabbi Roth taught us to call them up as Ploni Ben Ploni HaKohein vePlonit. You acknowledge that the person is a kohein in their name, but it's still just a good-ole-egalitarian First Aliyah, as with anyone else. To have done differently would go against the whole premise of egalitarian aliyot. You don't distinguish for kohein/levi status. To specifically NOT give the kohein the first aliyah would be sorta reverse-discrimination, too, which would also be counter the egalitarian thing.

(just to be clear, I mean egalitarian in the global sense, as in, not distinguishing between anyone for any reason, well, except maybe being a minor, of course)

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

Thanks. That makes sense- I just found it a little bit of a brain-twister, since my default brain-setting is still for the traditional distribution of aliyot. I guess as far as I've gotten in readjusting is some sort of internal presumption that however the aliyot start, they will continue. So having a kohein called up first sent me scrambling.

(Also being a Gentile, or I suppose in theory being in cherem or something, no? At the shul in Waltham the gabbay accidentally gave a gentile an aliyah. It was, well, a bit awkward afterwards when he and we found out.)

[gimmelgirl.livejournal.com]

I'd give someone an aliyah DAVKA if I knew they were in cherem!!!!

True, gentiles would probably be separate but equal in this system. ;o)

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

What if your rebbeim were the ones who put them in cherem? Heck- what if you were involved? I mean, isn't there a point the cherem, at least in theory?

[gimmelgirl.livejournal.com]

depends on why. usually it's MY rabbis who are being put in cherem....

[shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com]

So next time the Neturei Karta have a conference in NYC, they can expect an aliyah from you? :)

[gimmelgirl.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. And I would say a prayer for the state of Israel on their aliyah!!!!
(and SING it loudly and seductively)

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure R. Nosson Slifkin would take an aliyah at WLSS . . .

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

Why is the calling formula "le-aliyah rishonah" as opposed to "rishon" "sheni", etc.? Is there a fear of ranking people as opposed to aliyot?

"not distinguishing between anyone for any reason"

If that's the goal, why do seminary profs get called up with honorifics?

P.S. Surely you mean Ploni Ben Ploni HaKohein uflonit :-)

[shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com]

Why is the calling formula "le-aliyah rishonah" as opposed to "rishon" "sheni", etc.?

I think it's to avoid the grammatical confusions that arise when one has both male and female olim. Aliyyot do not change gender.

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

If so, LAME! :-) I prefer debka_notion's theory, since to paraphrase The Big Lebowski:

"Grammar ignorami! I mean, say what you like about the tenets of radical egalitarianism, Dude, at least it's an ethos!"

[shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com]

This might be funnier if I'd ever seen The Big Lebowski. Everyone keeps saying I should.

I can't say for sure that that's the reason. It strikes me as the most logical one, but what makes sense to me isn't always what makes sense to other people.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

I've heard people the other formula used, and someone found it objectionable because it did seem like an ordinal attached to the name rather than to the aliyah.

People seem to have no trouble with earned distinctions, especially when all they provide is a title (although lord knows that when the folks at the shul at home tacked on herr doktor before and after the title of rav for the rabbi there right after he got his honorary doctorate for 25 years in the pulpit in addition to his earned doctorate, I started getting squirmy). I'm not fond of the "no distinctions for any reason" theory, myself- it just doesn't quite make sense to me...

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

Fascinating. Given the gemara's concern that the order of aliyot not cause dissention, there must be some teshuva somewhere about someone getting annoyed for getting a higher or lower numbered aliyah. (Of course, you could interpret the numbers two ways: higher number = better because higher, or lower number = better because earlier.) Seems like an issue that deserves some careful research.

"People seem to have no trouble with earned distinctions"

My kashya (not to you, but to the "earned distinctions" people) is to ask: "Who says?" Some people have doctorates that aren't worth the paper they're written on, and we all know the stories about plumbers and street sweepers in 1950s Yerushalayim who knew all of Sha"s by heart.

"I'm not fond of the "no distinctions for any reason" theory, myself- it just doesn't quite make sense to me"

You know I'm with you on this one -- it might be, maybe, a hilkhata de-meshihata, but in the real world I live in it does not correspond either to my lived experience nor to what I consider ideally achievable against my current backdrop. In fact, I think it tends to be quite destructive, allowing us to ignore the very real prejudices we harbor. Plus, it seems to fly in the face of the M. Sanhedrin 4:5 about the utter uniqueness of every human being -- tzelem elokim there doesn't mean that we're all the same, but rather that we're all profoundly unique, and I for one would rather struggle to find everyone's uniqueness (and to preserve rituals one effect of which is to remind us that one's ancestry has profound effects on who one is and one's "role" in society) than to try to lump them all together, effectively obliterating that uniqueness.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

The question is- have most people with doctorates created something of real worth that is a real achievement by doing so. If so, then I at least think that that's a worthwhile distinction (even if as far as I know, no one with a doctorate should go by Dr. in social contexts). But as far as "who says"- with rabbinic titles, presumably that does apply. I don't know- if someone is ordained by an insitution or individual rabbi you think is heretical/unqualified to ordain/a bunch of idiots with carrots in their ears- would you call them up for an aliyah sans title?

"hilkhata de-meshihata"- this is a new term for me. Define/translate, perhaps?

For me the goal is to recognize uniqueness and at the same time to offer a fairly level playing field for those who want it. And I don't see how specifically not being able to get a particular aliyah really makes a difference in someone's feeling of religious empowerment. And it's traditional, and it does serve a function of identification and a reason to remember our roots- hence I see no reason why giving out a kohen and levi aliyah is such a problem. On the other hand- well, clearly I feel differently about gender-egalitarianism, but perhaps if I hadn't grown up in an egalitarian setting I might feel differently. As it is- in Orthodox contexts, it isn't the seperate seating that I mind, it's not having a Use.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

If you find anything like that first point, let me know, ok? I'd be amused. I've never seen anything of the sort, besides the (I think Hasidic) notion that either aliyah 3 or 6 is better in some way, and therefore giving it to their rebbeim...

If someone were to get grumpy about such stuff while I was gabbaying, I'd probably just offer them hagbah, which I'm told gives one much more acquired merit, and would solve the problem of finding someone to do hagbah all at once.

[debka-notion.livejournal.com]

"I'll concede that I have the requite hours. I hold two degrees- a baccalaureate in humane arts... meaning I squeaked through... and a doctorate from an old and prestigious school- a Ph.D. in eduction.'
'Zebediah! You wouldn't!' (I was horrififed)
'But I did, Deety. To prove that degrees per se are worthless. Often they are honorifics of true scientists or learned scholars or inspired teachers. Much more frequently they are false faces for overeducated jackasses.'
...
"Grandpa Zach was as contankerous an old coot as you'll ever meet. hated government, hated lawyers, hated civil servants, hated preachers, hated automobiles, public schools and telephones, was comtemptuous of most editors, most writers, most professors, ost of almost anthing. But he overtipped waitresses and porters and would go out of his way to avoid stepping on an insect.
Grandpa had three doctorates: biochemistry, medicine and law- and he regarded anyone who couldn't read Latin, greek, Hebrew, French and German as illiterate."
-Robert Heinlein, Number of the Beast p. 79 (in my copy)

Just felt so relevant I wanted to tack it on here.

[gimmelgirl.livejournal.com]

Yes, thank you for catching my extraneous transliterated dagesh. I tend to be a bit sloppy on these fora.

The calling formula is as it is indicated in the "Yad LaTorah" rabbis manual, and as Rabbi Joel Roth instructed us. No idea why.

Honorifics that are earned stay. You don't get a "better" aliyah because you're moreinu harav, but you still get to be moreinu harav, so in that sense, we're still not distinguishing between people.

[shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com]

I tend to be a bit sloppy on these fora.

You mean forums. Or better, forumses.

[gimmelgirl.livejournal.com]

No, I meant "fora," as I was likening the communities of livejournal to the ancient Roman public squares or marketplaces used for judicial and other business.

Or better, forumopotomi.

[hotshot2000.livejournal.com]

True, you're not distinguishing between people in terms of the aliyot, but you're doing something much worse (according to the pure egalitarian principle you articulated earlier in the thread), which is distinguishing between people in reality. I would assume the former is supposed to be symbolic of the actualization of this principle in society in general. And my kashya stands -- why should the egalitarian principle be violated for "earned honorifics" and not for every person's unique accomplishments?

[thevortex.livejournal.com]

(just to be clear, I mean egalitarian in the global sense, as in, not distinguishing between anyone for any reason, well, except maybe being a minor, of course)

So, in such "egalitarian" congregations, do Yisraelim get to ascend the duchan, too? Or do they abolish birkat kohanim?

Huzzah!

The Vortex

[gimmelgirl.livejournal.com]

We don't duchen, no.

[shirei-shibolim.livejournal.com]

Any idea when that decision was made, by the way?

[thevortex.livejournal.com]

Is that because of the "women-can't-ascend-the-duchan" debate, or because of the "equality" issue?

At Brandeis, it was the former.

Huzzah!

The Vortex